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Lord Marlesford: My Lords, if my noble friend will allow me to intervene, the Home Office is responsible for advising Ministers as to what the law should be which the police have to enforce.

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, my noble friend is right about that. We set the framework in which the police operate. However, I thought that when he spoke my noble friend was referring to the administration of the scheme. Perhaps he is now telling me that it is the scheme that he criticises.

My noble friend Lord Peel asked whether .22 guns could be stored at dealers' premises. Where a dealer runs a shooting range, as a number do, the pistols can be stored on the dealers' premises if they meet the necessary security standards. However, if the gun would have to leave the dealers' premises in order to reach the gun club, that would not be acceptable. That point was clearly made by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary at Report stage in another place, reported in Hansard of 4th December at col. 1150.

In an interesting speech, my noble friend Lord Burton first referred to compensation for .22 guns. In my opening speech, I said that owners of .22 pistols who do not join licensed pistol clubs and surrender them instead at police stations will receive a payment based on the market value of that pistol. I am pleased to assure my noble friend on that point.

My noble friend Lord Burton also made reference to Thomas Hamilton and the possibility of his involvement with the Masons. In his report at paragraph 5.6, Lord Cullen said:

"I am satisfied that he [Hamilton] was not a member of the masons".

But I should put it on record that Mr. McMurdo has made it clear that he is not and has never been a member of a masonic lodge and I understand that the allegations have caused him a good deal of personal distress. Therefore the warning is that we should be very careful when making allegations that we have some evidence to make them rather than impugn unnecessarily someone's character.

My noble friend Lord Burton also criticised the Central Scotland Police. Lord Cullen's inquiry examined thoroughly Central Scotland Police's action. The deputy chief constable, Mr. McMurdo, resigned from the force and from his post in Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland. Of course there are lessons to be learned from Lord Cullen's findings. Police forces throughout Britain are learning them, and those as well as the other factors identified by Lord Cullen will enable Home Office guidance to the police to be comprehensive when it is finally agreed and issued.

Perhaps I may say this to my noble friend Lord Burton. Talk of a cover up is nonsense. The procurator fiscal and the Lord Advocate made it clear to the public that anybody, but anybody, with any information should

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disclose it to the procurator fiscal who would then arrange for it to be placed before the Cullen Inquiry. There have been two inquiries. These allegations are outrageous. They imply that my noble and learned friend the Lord Advocate, who has sat with me throughout the debate, and Lord Cullen deliberately concealed relevant lines of inquiry from public scrutiny. They did not, my Lords. My noble friend really must provide evidence if he continues to make those kinds of allegations.

My noble friend Lord Burton also referred to the seizure of gun clubs' records. He will know that when he first brought this point to me I expressed some sympathy with the points he made. Records were taken possession of by the police in accordance with recognised Scottish procedures. Acting on the instructions of the procurator fiscal, the police seized the records of all the gun clubs with whom Hamilton was known to have been associated. No receipts were issued by the police. It is not normal for such receipts to be issued in Scotland. The records were required for the Cullen inquiry and for the fatal accident inquiry into the death of Mrs. Mayor, the class teacher. That inquiry took place last month.

The Clyde Valley Sports Club first asked for its records back before the fatal accident inquiry. That was not possible at that time. The club asked again last week, and the procurator fiscal has now instructed that they be returned. The other club's records will be returned shortly. Any inconvenience caused to the clubs is much regretted. However, I trust the House will appreciate the importance of the procurator fiscal thoroughly investigating Hamilton's involvement with guns.

I welcome the support that my noble friend Lady Byford gave to the Bill. I can tell her that in principle lottery money will be available to clubs for improvements. They qualify, as indeed does any other sport.

My noble friend Lord Stockton asked for an assurance that the Bill, drawn up in response to Cullen, was not in fact produced in advance of Cullen. I assure him that no work was done on the Bill and no decisions were reached on the policy until Lord Cullen's report was received on 14th October. We did not stop thinking about this whole issue in the meantime, but work on the Bill did not anticipate the Cullen report.

My noble friend Lord Lyell referred to the issue of two referees. This requirement applies to firearm certificate applications only. Shotgun applications will continue to require one counter-signatory.

My noble friend Lord Torphichen intervened in the gap with a comment or two and a question. Those who have been exempted from the prohibition of weapons in the Bill--the police and the military were examples given by my noble friend--have their own facilities. They will continue to have their own facilities and will continue to practise, as is consistent with the proficiency needed in having to use those weapons.

My noble friend Lord Peel and other noble Lords asked why the Government do not set up a central firearms control board to issue certificates. I believe the

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question posed was: would that not be more efficient than relying on an overstretched police force? I understand that to be the Labour and the Liberal Democrat position. Lord Cullen does not favour the removal from the police of any of the functions concerned with the operation of the present system--(I refer to paragraph 8.5). We agree with that view.

I was also asked: was the proposal to establish a firearms control board rejected on grounds of cost and, if so, why not set a higher licence fee? The Government did not reject the proposed control board on cost alone. It was also rejected because such a board would create duplication of effort due to the need for continued police involvement.

The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, made reference in his opening remarks to a free vote in support of comments made by the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie. I found his point interesting. The most significant feature of this debate is the signal absence of speakers from the Labour Benches. As I understand it, the Labour Party advocate publicly a response which goes much further than Cullen, and even further than the Government. Yet its Members have not turned up today to argue the case. As I understand the noble Lord's remarks, the Labour Party has no intention of Whipping its Members in this House in support of what is being trumpeted as a public stand on this issue.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, perhaps the Minister will allow me to intervene. She is being less than generous. I said that there would be a free vote at all stages; that is quite correct. However, I also said that, within the limits of the persuasion that I can exercise in relation to a free vote, I should seek to encourage my noble friends, if there is any question of amendments weakening the thrust of the Bill or increasing the cost of compensation, to join the government Lobby and to ensure that the Bill is no less strong than it is now and does not cost any more than it does now. I thought that represented a good deal of support for the Government's position and it would be nice if the Minister recognised it.

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, if the noble Lord is a little more patient, he will hear me do exactly that. I was not being less generous, I was making the observation that there is an interesting absence of Members who feel strongly about the issue. I believe that they should have been here today arguing the case which the Labour Party is making much of outside this Chamber and putting a different view from the Government on the issue of the response to the Cullen Report. I find it odd.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, in face of the support which I have given her, I think the Minister should be a little more careful in her comments. It is true that my noble friends, with the exception of my noble friend, Lord Stoddart, appear to have confidence in my judgment and not to wish to hear me on the subject. But there are differences about what matters are of the greatest importance. In order to remain here until this point of the debate, my noble friends would have had to sit through nearly 40 speeches advocating the

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views of a small minority of the people of this country who have a personal interest in shooting handguns. That is a great deal to demand. Perhaps the Minister will allow me to finish. If that criticism is to be taken, then let us see how many Conservative Members of this House remain for debates about housing benefit, homelessness, or many of the much more pressing social problems which face this country.

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the point I make is that I believe that the House would have benefited from the views of noble Lords opposite. We do not yet know officially whether we shall have to vote on the measure. It was possible that the Second Reading of the Bill was at risk and it would have been helpful to the Government if noble Lords opposite, even if they did not speak, had attended tonight in order to help the Government ensure the Second Reading and had responded to my plea at the beginning of the debate that the Bill should have a Second Reading.

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