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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am sorry but the Minister is determined to turn this into an issue between the two Front Benches, which is not the way that I saw it in my speech. I had prepared my colleagues for the possibility that they would have to come back and support the Government against the amendment moved by the noble Earl, Lord Strafford. I accepted his assurance that he had no intention of carrying the amendment to a vote and I told my colleagues that they need not stay. I believe that my acceptance of his honourable intentions are right, but in case there was any doubt about it I warned any noble Lords who might be tempted to deny the noble Earl the right to withdraw his amendment that they would get themselves into enormous difficulty potentially with the Parliament Act. Indeed, if the House will forgive me, they would be shooting themselves in the foot.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the noble Lord said, "We believe in a total ban". Again, I have to refer to the fact that this is a free vote. We would like to think that the Labour Party would at least use the Whip to bring its members in and also do what the noble Lord said. He is not in a position to say "we, the Labour Party" because he has said officially that the Labour Party has a free vote.
Nevertheless, I wrote down in my own hand, before the noble Lord provoked me, that we welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, limited though it is to those people who take part in a free vote. I would have found it more convincing if noble Lords on that side had been present, especially as there might have been a vote on whether the Bill should receive a Second Reading.
A number of criticisms have been made during the debate to the effect that proposals contained in the Bill do nothing for public safety. The real issue before us today is public safety and I strongly disagree with the view expressed. The Government's overriding priority in putting forward this Bill is to do all we can to improve public safety; nor in doing this do the Government cast blame, as has been said by many noble Lords, on the bona fide law-abiding shooters. The banning of handguns from the home, the removal of 160,000 high calibre guns from the scene altogether and allowing the remaining small calibre pistols to be stored and used in strictly licensed pistol clubs are measures not to be dismissed lightly as having no implications for public protection. Taken together with continued tough action by the police and customs officers to tackle the problem of illegally held handguns, these measures will do much to improve public safety.
Lord Cullen himself said in paragraph 9.98:
- "I am satisfied that a ban on the possession of multi-shot handguns would have some effect on the incidence of serious crime".
Further stages of this Bill promise to be lively, and we shall return to these measures in some detail. Meanwhile, I will, as always, reflect on all that has been said today. I now ask the House to give this Bill a Second Reading.
10.42 p.m.
The Earl of Strafford: My Lords, my hopes in tabling this amendment have been fully realised. This evening we have had a very wide ranging debate, and I have to take issue with the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh that the debate has been one-sided. When he reads Hansard he will realise that there was a strong theme running through a lot of the speeches; namely, that in the Commons the politicians have been putting on their party hats on this issue and have rushed this through. That is a very important theme. We have given this issue very careful consideration. We have probably helped to give the country an idea of just how complex are the issues involved in this and perhaps we have helped the Government to create fair and workable legislation. Obviously, we are going to have to work very hard in Committee to enable them to see the light.
I will not detain the House any longer, because it is getting late. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Amendment to the Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Theft (Amendment) Bill [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons agreed to.
- House adjourned at seventeen minutes before eleven o'clock.
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