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Business of the House: Debate, 15th January
3.18 p.m.
The Lord Privy Seal (Viscount Cranborne): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the debate on the Motion in the name of the Lord Williams of Elvel set down for tomorrow shall be limited to five hours.--(Viscount Cranborne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House of Lords' Offices: Select Committee Report
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Boston of Faversham): My Lords, I beg to move that the First Report from the Select Committee on House of Lords Offices be agreed to. In doing so I must apologise to your Lordships for a mistake in the report. In paragraph 3 reference is made to paragraph 7. There is no paragraph 7. The reference should be to paragraph 6. With that correction, I beg to move.
Moved, That the First Report from the Select Committee be agreed to (HL Paper 24).--(The Chairman of Committees.)
Following is the report referred to:
- 1. Appointment of Sub-Committees
- The Committee appointed the following Sub-Committees and Panel-
- Finance and Staff Sub-Committee
L. Boston of Faversham (Chairman),
V. Cranborne,
B. Gould of Potternewton,
L. Harris of Greenwich,
E. Northesk,
L. Peston,
L. Renfrew of Kaimsthorn,
L. Richard,
L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank,
B. Seccombe,
L. Weatherill,
with the Clerk of the Parliaments.
- Administration and Works Sub-Committee
V. Allenby of Megiddo,
L. Boston of Faversham (Chairman),
E. Gowrie,
L. Graham of Edmonton,
L. Harris of Greenwich,
L. McColl of Dulwich,
L. Peston,
L. Renfrew of Kaimsthorn,
B. Serota,
L. Strathclyde,
V. Tenby,
L. Weatherill,
with the Clerk of the Parliaments and the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod.
- Library and Computers Sub-Committee
L. Brougham and Vaux,
L. Freyberg,
L. Holderness,
B. Lockwood,
L. Lucas,
L. McIntosh of Haringey,
L. Mustill,
B. Nicol,
L. Renfrew of Kaimsthorn (Chairman),
L. St. John of Bletso,
with the Clerk of the Parliaments.
- Refreshment Sub-Committee
E. Arran,
L. Chesham,
L. Colwyn,
B. David,
L. Graham of Edmonton,
L. Harris of Greenwich,
L. Howell,
L. Lawrence,
L. Mackie of Benshie,
L. Palmer,
L. Peston (Chairman),
with the Clerk of the Parliaments.
- Advisory Panel on Works of Art
L. Armstrong of Ilminster,
L. Chorley,
L. Crathorne,
L. Donoughue,
V. Falkland,
E. Gowrie (Chairman),
B. Hilton of Eggardon,
L. Hindlip,
L. Palmer,
B. Trumpington,
with the Clerk of the Parliaments.
2. Smoking in the Writing Room
- The Committee considered a request to redesignate the Writing Room as a non-smoking room. The Committee decided that no changes should be made at present, but agreed that the House's policy on smoking should be, in the longer term, to reduce the number of smoking areas relative to non-smoking areas.
- 3. Enhanced Message Service
- The Committee approved outline proposals for an enhanced message service within the parliamentary estate. A Project Manager will be appointed (see paragraph 7 below) to oversee the introduction, after full consultation with members and relevant committees of both Houses, of a new service which will offer a variety of systems for taking and passing on messages, to supplement the present system provided by the Attendants and Doorkeepers.
- 4. Yeoman Usher's apartment
- The Committee was informed that the Yeoman Usher's accommodation in the House of Lords was being converted to offices for peers; it approved the purchase of alternative accommodation outside the Palace of Westminster.
- 5. Salaries of the Chairman and Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees
- The Committee approved revised salaries for the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of Committees with effect from 24th July 1996.
- 6. Staff of the House
- The Committee took note of the appointment of Dr. D.A. Rolt as a Temporary Clerk, and of the proposed appointment of two additional waiting staff in the Refreshment Department. The Committee agreed the appointment of a Project Manager of the proposed message service, on a shared basis with the House of Commons.
Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe rose to move, as an amendment to the above Motion, at end to insert ("but refers the matter of the Enhanced Message Service (paragraph 3) back to the Select Committee").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the amendment standing in my name on the Order Paper. I promise not to detain the House for very long. Over the years I have from time to time raised points on Offices reports only to be told that the matter has already been decided in another report. On examining Hansard, I usually find that such reports have gone through on the nod. In the present case, paragraph 3, which deals with the message service, is sufficiently important to use this expedient to draw the matter to your Lordships' attention.
Over the years I have very much appreciated the service provided by the Doorkeepers and Attendants in delivering messages. I have nothing but admiration for them. Paragraph 3 of the report deals with an enhanced message service. That is not how ordinary people talk to one another. When I saw the phrase "enhanced message service" I thought it had the smell of consultants about it.
Yesterday I had a meeting with Black Rod. He was, as usual, extremely helpful. He confirmed that the proposal is based upon a consultant's report. Not only did he confirm it; he was kind enough to furnish me with a copy of the report. It weighs 3 lbs. or, I am told, in the new parlance, 1.3 kg. I tried to go through it last night. It is extremely complicated and far reaching, and driven, I believe, by the House of Commons, the Members of which are increasingly becoming professional politicians. The requirements of this House will not always coincide with those of the Commons.
All I am asking the Lord Chairman to do is to confirm to the House that we will have further opportunities to consider, as a House, the development of this service before things go too far down the line and we find that it is beyond recall and that the whole atmosphere of the House is being damaged. I beg to move.
Moved, as an amendment to the above Motion, at end to insert ("but refers the matter of the Enhanced Message Service (paragraph 3) back to the Select Committee").--(Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe.)
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, will the Lord Chairman tell us the cost of the report as well as its weight?
Lord Ashbourne: My Lords, I was saddened by the decision to exclude the Princess of Wales from Prayers in this Chamber. The decision reflects a lack of generosity of spirit which is not usual in your Lordships' House. It involves practically no time and certainly no money. The House should have an opportunity to air its view on that important matter. I should like to see it adjusted now.
Lord Monkswell: My Lords, we all owe my noble friend Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe a debt of gratitude for introducing this topic. Can the Lord Chairman say that a copy of the report referred to will be placed in the Library so that other Members of your Lordships' House are able to have sight of it?
The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, and for the convenience of the House, I can perhaps deal with the various points that have been raised at one time, although, strictly speaking, as your Lordships will be aware, I should be out of order in doing so because strictly we are dealing only with matters arising on the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe. I turn to that first.
The purpose of the proposal is to improve--I prefer, as does the noble Lord, Lord Cocks, a word such as that to the word "enhance"--the service which should be provided to your Lordships and through your Lordships to the country as a whole. I endorse completely what the noble Lord, Lord Cocks, said about the great helpfulness of our Doorkeepers, Attendants and other staff.
In answer to the principal point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Cocks, I can confirm that there will be a further opportunity for your Lordships to consider these matters. They are in their early stages. There are further detailed plans to be considered. They will be considered, as were the initial proposals, in turn by the Administration and Works Sub-Committee and the Offices Committee of your Lordships' House. Once they have had an opportunity to deal with these matters, they will come again before your Lordships, so there will be ample opportunity further to consider the detailed proposals and to consider whether we want any of them, none of them, or all of them.
I draw attention to paragraph 3 of the report which refers to consultation with your Lordships. Perhaps I may add to that by saying that there will be a
presentation to members of the sub-committee and the Offices Committee on the 28th of this month as part of the preparation for considering the detailed matters further.On the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mackie, I am afraid that I do not have the cost with me. If I can obtain it, I shall let the noble Lord know outside the Chamber. The noble Lord, Lord Monkswell, asked for a copy of the consultant's report to be placed in the Library of the House. That is a matter which, as already indicated, stems from consideration by another place as well as your Lordships' House. So I am not sure whether I can give a categorical answer at the moment. I shall look into it and let the noble Lord, Lord Monkswell, know. If it is possible to provide a copy in the Library I shall do so.
With your Lordships' leave, as it does not arise out of this report, let alone the amendment, perhaps I may refer to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ashbourne. The Administration and Works Sub-Committee and the Offices Committee of your Lordships' House gave thorough consideration to the matter that the noble Lord has raised. We had the benefit of submissions from the noble Lord, Lord Stallard, and the noble Baroness, Lady Macleod of Borve, which we greatly appreciated. However, we decided to make no recommendation for any change to your Lordships; hence there is no reference to it in the report.
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