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Baroness Blatch: At the beginning of my response to this amendment I said that the question was where the line should be drawn in the sand. The debate today is about where that line should be drawn. The Government have come to a particular conclusion and they will defend it in the course of this debate. The amendment before the Committee is much more akin to a total ban on handguns, and for that reason I hope that noble Lords will reject it.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The difference between my noble friends and me and the Government, as I hoped I made clear at the beginning, is relatively small. I accept that the direct effect of the Bill as drafted is to remove 80 per cent. of legal handguns not only from circulation but from existence. I also accept that the very tight restrictions on gun clubs mean that a considerable proportion--no one knows quite how many--of the remaining 20 per cent. will disappear. That may be an advantage to the Government. They will disappear because there may be nowhere where they can be kept legally and no compensation will be payable. I am always conscious of that slightly cynical point.

However, the debate in the main has not been about that but has returned to the more atavistic dislike by many noble Lords of the Government's proposal. That is a pity. I would have hoped that the Committee could have restricted itself to my narrower point of disagreement with the Government. Having listened to some of the contributions to the debate, I rather suspect that my noble friend Lord Stoddart, had he been around

16 Jan 1997 : Column 310

in 1621, would have been opposed to the rule of order that disallowed the carrying of swords in this Chamber. To put it as neutrally as I can, he is a traditionalist.

Be that as it may, the difference between myself and the Minister is relatively small. It is, however, significant in the sense that the effectiveness and public understanding of the law will be very much greater if there is a total ban on handguns. If every time we see a handgun we know that it must be illegal because the law does not allow a handgun to be carried or used in this country, that recognition must be of assistance to the police in carrying out their duties. I appreciate that the carrying of handguns in the street will not be allowed, and never has been allowed. But if no one is trained to use handguns or has the experience of shooting at targets with handguns, the possibility of an individual using small calibre pistols to kill people will be ever so marginally reduced.

I refer to the remarks of my noble friend Lord Stoddart of Swindon. There is no guarantee that legislation can prevent a Dunblane or a Hungerford. No one denies that the legislation proposed by the Government is very stringent, but it could be that much better if the amendment were carried. I put the Question to the Committee.

5.35 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 4) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 81; Not-Contents, 215.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Banbury of Southam, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Broadbridge, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Calverley, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Clancarty, E.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
David, B.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gallacher, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]
Halsbury, E.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Henderson of Brompton, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooson, L.
Hughes, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennet, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kirkwood, L.
Layton, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lovell-Davis, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Mar and Kellie, E. [Teller.]
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Newall, L.
Peston, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury, L.
Serota, B.
Simon, V.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Wallace of Coslany, L.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.
Winston, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Abinger, L.
Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Aldenham, L.
Alderdice, L.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Annaly, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Balfour, E.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Belstead, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Blyth, L.
Bowness, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brain, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Braybrooke, L.
Brightman, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Burton, L.
Byford, B.
Cadman, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clifford of Chudleigh, L.
Clinton, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cochrane of Cults, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Coleridge, L.
Colwyn, L.
Congleton, L.
Cottesloe, L.
Courtown, E.
Cowley, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.] Crawshaw, L.
Cross, V.
Cumberlege, B.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Darcy (de Knayth), B.
Daventry, V.
Davidson, V.
De Saumarez, L.
Denbigh, E.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Digby, L.
Dilhorne, V.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donegall, M.
Downshire, M.
Eden of Winton, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erne, E.
Erroll, E.
Fairfax of Cameron, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Feversham, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gainsborough, E.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gibson, L.
Gisborough, L.
Goschen, V.
Habgood, L.
Haddington, E.
Haig, E.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardinge of Penshurst, L.
Harlech, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hemphill, L.
Henley, L.
Hertford, M.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Home, E.
Hothfield, L.
Howe, E.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hylton, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Iddesleigh, E.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kimball, L.
Kintore, E.
Kitchener, E.
Knutsford, V.
Lauderdale, E.
Lawrence, L.
Lindsay, E.
Liverpool, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Lytton, E.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.] Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Macpherson of Drumochter, L.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Merrivale, L.
Mersey, V.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milverton, L.
Minto, E.
Monk Bretton, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Monteagle of Brandon, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Mountevans, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Nelson, E.
Nelson of Stafford, L.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Norfolk, D.
Norrie, L.
Northesk, E.
Norton, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prior, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Rathcreedan, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renton, L.
Rochester, L.
Rotherwick, L.
St. Davids, V.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandwich, E.
Selborne, E.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Spens, L.
Stallard, L.
Stockton, E.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Sudeley, L.
Suffield, L.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thurlow, L.
Tollemache, L.
Torphichen, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tryon, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vernon, L.
Vinson, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Waterford, M.
Weatherill, L.
Westmorland, E.
Wharton, B.
Wigram, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wynford, L.
Yarborough, E.
Zouche of Haryngworth, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

16 Jan 1997 : Column 312

5.46 p.m.

[Amendment No. 5 not moved.]

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