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Earl Attlee: In opposing the question that Clause 4 stand part of the Bill, it may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak also to Amendment No. 10 which is tabled in my name. On Second Reading I drew the attention of noble Lords to the so-called "starting pistols" used at athletic meetings. In due course I received a letter from the Minister designed to reassure me. It did not. We need to remember that we are here today as the result of a tragedy which occurred at a school, yet the Minister intends to allow what she calls starting pistols to be used at athletics meetings. Obviously such meetings involve young people.
We are not talking about blank firing pistols, as no licence is needed for them, or for the ammunition, provided that the diameter of the ammunition does not exceed 1 inch. What we are talking about are items such as fully serviceable Webley .455s which will fire live rounds. The dangers are obvious. No matter how careful and responsible the officials are, the guns could be stolen by skilful criminals. The officials, and indeed competitors, could become vulnerable to attack.
As I pointed out on Second Reading, you can kill someone with a blank if the muzzle is pressed against the head. That could easily happen with horseplay among youngsters. I accept that that has not happened yet, but it could happen and it is unnecessary. The Minister will tell us, in the way that she does so well, why it is necessary. She will explain that a large flash, a loud bang and plenty of smoke are necessary so that the back-up timekeepers can see when the race starts. But it is the blank ammunition that does that and I have no problem in that respect. You can get all those effects by using a proper blank firing gun which cannot fire a projectile and, therefore, is outside the scope of the Firearms Act.
I believe that I can anticipate the Minister's response to my amendment, but what about that of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh? My amendment would strengthen the Bill and remove handguns from close proximity to youngsters when they have no choice in the matter. Presumably the noble Lord's aim with this Bill is to improve the safety of the public. If that is so, the noble Lord will support me and urge me to pursue the matter at a later stage.
6.15 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, has opposed that Clause 4 should stand part of the Bill. If Clause 4 were not part of the Bill this would prohibit the use of handguns for starting races at athletics meetings.
The noble Earl raised the matter on 16th December during the debate on the Second Reading of the Bill; but, unfortunately, I did not have an opportunity to respond at the time and, as he has already said, I wrote to him on the subject and placed a copy of that letter in the Library for the notice of other noble Lords.
However, it may be helpful if I explain to the Committee, for the sake of the record, the Government's reasoning for allowing this exemption from the general prohibition on handguns. Clause 4 provides that a person does not need the Secretary of State's authority under Section 5(1)(aba) of the Firearms Act 1968, as inserted by Clause 1 of the Bill, to possess, purchase, acquire, sell or transfer a firearm that is held on a firearm certificate with a condition that it is only to be used for starting races at athletics meetings. The clause also provides that a person such as a race official other than a certificate holder may possess a firearm at an athletics meeting in order to start races.
Most starting pistols--the ones used at most schools sports days--do not have an open barrel and are simply designed to make a bang. They are not classed as firearms and the legislation would not affect them anyway.
We understand from the British Athletics Federation that major athletics events require starting guns which are classed as firearms. For technical reasons, BAF starters require a gun which can produce a very loud bang and a highly visible flash from the muzzle end of the gun. Special blank ammunition is used for this purpose. The visible flash is required to notify the manual timekeepers who are required to act as a back-up in case the electronic systems fail. Such accurate
timekeeping is only essential for races where international, national or regional records will be set and such records are only recognised when a BAF starter is present. We understand that a .22 pistol would not be suitable for that task. It would not produce either a bright enough flash or a loud enough bang.A firearm certificate for a starting gun will not allow possession of bulleted ammunition. Race starters, of course, only require blank rounds, as the noble Earl said.
In these particular cases, we believe it right that the chief officer of police should have the discretion to grant Section 1 certificates to these people. The chief officer will be able to assess each case on its merits. We consider that it would be unnecessarily bureaucratic to require these people to obtain the Secretary of State's separate authority. Starting pistols are generally blank-firing handguns and their construction determines whether or not they are subject to firearm certificate control.
The Forensic Science Service conducts examinations of production models of blank-firers to determine how easily they can be converted. Those which are so designed or adapted that they could readily be converted to firing live ammunition with ordinary tools--for example, by drilling out any obstruction in the barrel--must be held on a firearm certificate. Most starting pistols of the type encountered at school sports days, as I have said, are not readily convertible. Neither the proposed nor existing legislation bites on these.
Some athletics race starters use conventional revolvers of the type which the Government intend to ban. Long before Dunblane we had been in correspondence with the British Athletics Federation about the continued use of those guns. The BAF has made a plausible case, we believe, for the retention by some of its starters.
Any concern that such an exemption would be open to abuse is countered by the fact that firearm certificates for these handguns will not allow the possession of bulleted ammunition. In addition, the only individuals who will be able to make a case for retaining a handgun will be those approved by the BAF as starters. The BAF has indicated that it has only around 300 starters in the United Kingdom, and that not all of these require firearms. I hope that reply is slightly more reassuring, but I am not sure that I have added a great deal to the letter that I wrote to the noble Earl before the Committee stage.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The noble Earl challenged me in his opening speech to respond to him on the grounds that this measure represents a strengthening of the Bill. Of course he is quite right, but I thought it better to wait for the Minister's reply before responding directly to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. I must confess that I was unconvinced by what the Minister said. With modern technology it cannot be beyond the wits of those who design electronic instruments to produce something which produces a loud bang and makes a vivid flash without being in the form of a pistol of some kind. That seems to me to be
very old fashioned in technological terms. I was not convinced that the noble Earl had an adequate answer to the case that he made. I would rather see as few exceptions as possible. I doubt whether the noble Earl will press this matter to a vote, but I confirm to him that what he says sounds reasonable.
Lord Hooson: Can the noble Baroness tell us whether the requirement of a firearm for starting national races is an international requirement? If it is an international requirement, it seems to me we should go along with it. However, if it is simply a British requirement, surely it could be modified.
Baroness Blatch: I do not know the definitive answer to that question, but my understanding is that the British Athletics Federation operates to national and international standards. I need to take advice on whether there is a comparable standard for the starting pistol, and report back to the noble Lord.
Lord Torphichen: If I am to understand that Thomas Hamilton was already involved with boys' clubs, and could have gained the weapons he needed by becoming interested in athletics and becoming a starter, please let us have this measure.
Earl Attlee: I appreciate that my provision would cause inconvenience as regards sport. However, the general principle of the Bill will cause much inconvenience to people who compete in shooting matches at international level. Is the Minister aware that in the aftermath of the Dunblane disaster the Amateur Swimming Association decided that blank firing pistols were inappropriate and that it would stop using them? If the Minister is aware of that, what conclusions does she draw from that decision? Can she confirm my assertion that firing a revolver using blank ammunition can kill someone?
Baroness Blatch: I do not believe that firing blanks would kill someone, but I am no expert on the matter and therefore I do not know. However, a good case was put to us by the British Athletics Federation. It needs to maintain a high standard of accuracy, and it has convinced us that this clause is needed. It has also convinced us that it has rigorous standards as regards accepting people to become starters. I would say to my noble friend that if Thomas Hamilton had become a starter, if he had used a gun with bulleted ammunition he would still have been in breach of the law. We have accepted the federation's case. We believe this is a highly controlled activity and that the British Athletics Federation has made a good case. We have decided to support the federation. However, I shall read what has been said in this debate, and we shall no doubt continue to debate the matter until we reach the end of the Bill.
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