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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: This sounds like the case of early cars or early steam engines being designed to look like horses as that was a more familiar sight to
people. The form of a pistol has nothing to do with making a loud noise or making a flash. That is quite illogical.
Earl Attlee: I am grateful for the Minister's comments on this measure. I may return at a later stage with a more tightly worded provision, perhaps referring to applicants having to be BAF starters.
Baroness Blatch: For the record, I should say that I have said the measure is confined absolutely to BAF starters. That was the whole point of the exemption.
Earl Attlee moved Amendment No. 11:
After Clause 4, insert the following new clause--
(" . The authority of the Secretary of State is not required by virtue of subsection (1)(aba) of section 5 of the 1968 Act for a person to have a firearm or ammunition in his possession if he is otherwise entitled to do so under section 13 of the 1968 Act.").
The noble Earl said: This amendment covers a small but important point. We are a trading nation and ships come from all over the world to our ports to trade and use our facilities. The master, in order to defend his ship from attack by pirates on the high seas, will often have a small armoury. Under Section 13 of the 1968 Act, that is no problem. However, a police permit is required if the guns are to leave the ship for maintenance, repair or transfer. Handguns will be involved in this and they would be caught by the Bill. If my amendment were accepted, the status quo would be maintained. Clause 13 of the 1968 Act is perhaps a little loosely drafted. However, I cannot envisage people rushing out to buy a merchant ship in order to keep their handguns. I beg to move.
The Earl of Mar and Kellie: I take this opportunity to mention a point which is just within the scope of the amendment. The rubric of the amendment refers to,
Baroness Blatch: The Bill does nothing to prevent the use of signalling apparatus on ships or at aerodromes. As for the use of high calibre guns on ships, the Government have consulted with the shipping industry and there were no calls to exempt persons on board ships from the general ban. Even if we had been faced with such calls, we could not envisage that such a blanket exemption for those
Earl Attlee: I thank the Minister for her reply. I shall have to study it and consider the matter more closely. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
"Equipment for ships and aircraft".
I refer in this connection to small boats and canoes. At present there are available some desirable mini flare guns which can be used to attract rescue when one is in distress. At the moment canoeists and dingy sailors are debarred from using such useful distress signals. Certainly those in the canoeing fraternity believe that one requires a firearm licence to own such a device. I believe that is a breach of common sense, albeit perhaps not a breach of the law. Perhaps the Minister can help me on that point. I accept that as the matter is wide of the amendment the Minister may choose to write to me.
6.30 p.m.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Murton of Lindisfarne): I call Amendment No. 12. If the amendment is carried I shall be unable to call Amendments Nos. 13 and 15 owing to pre-emption.
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 12:
The noble Baroness said: As the Committee will know, this amendment is grouped with Amendments Nos. 13 to 16 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Monson, and my noble friend Lord Gisborough. My ministerial colleague the right honourable Ann Widdecombe undertook to table a government amendment on this point at Committee stage of the Bill in another place on 19th November 1996, reported at col. 866.
Clause 5 as currently drafted does not allow for handguns being passed as valuable sentimental mementoes to a widow or other heir of someone who acquired a trophy of war before 1946. This amendment would make it possible for the trophy to remain in the family. The heir, like his parent or ancestor, will have to hold a valid firearm certificate. Therefore I invite the Committee to accept this amendment.
As noble Lords will see, the other amendments put forward on this clause would achieve broadly the same effect as the government amendment. My noble friend Lord Gisborough may be pleased to see that the government amendment will allow spouses and other family members to inherit, not simply close blood relatives as my noble friend proposes. Therefore I hope that my noble friend will accept that the government amendment is preferable. I invite the House to accept it.
Lord Gisborough: I am grateful to the Minister for activating what was promised as an amendment. I shall not wish to move my amendment.
Lord Monson: I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness. Her amendment achieves in a much simpler form what I set out to do. I welcome her amendment.
Lord Renton: There seems to be a mistake on the Marshalled List. Page 2 does not have a line 43. Presumably the amendment refers to line 33 or 35.
Baroness Blatch: There are 45 lines on page 2.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 13 to 17 not moved.]
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 18:
Page 2, line 43, leave out from ("which") to ("before") and insert ("was acquired as a trophy of war").
After Clause 5, insert the following new clause--
(" .--(1) The authority of the Secretary of State is not required by virtue of subsection (1)(aba) of section 5 of the 1968 Act for a person to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, or to sell or transfer a firearm which--
(a) was manufactured before 1st January 1919; and
(b) is of a description specified under subsection (2) below,
if he is authorised by a firearm certificate to have the firearm in his possession, or to purchase or acquire it, subject to a condition that he does so only for the purpose of its being kept or exhibited as part of a collection.
(2) The Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument specify a description of firearm for the purposes of subsection (1) above if it appears to him that--
(a) firearms of that description were manufactured before 1st January 1919; and
(b) ammunition for firearms of that type is not readily available.
(3) The authority of the Secretary of State is not required by virtue of subsection (1)(aba) of section 5 of the 1968 Act for a person to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, or to sell or transfer a firearm which--
(a) is of particular rarity, aesthetic quality or technical interest, or
(b) is of historical importance,
if he is authorised by a firearm certificate to have the firearm in his possession subject to a condition requiring it to be kept and used only at a place designated for the purposes of this subsection by the Secretary of State.
(4) This section has effect without prejudice to section 58(2) of the 1968 Act (antique firearms).").
The noble Baroness said: This amendment has already been spoken to. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 19:
After Clause 5, insert the following new clause--
(" .--(1) The authority of the Secretary of State is not required by virtue of subsection (1)(aba) of section 5 of the 1968 Act for a person to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, or to sell or transfer, a shot pistol if he is authorised by a firearm certificate to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, a shot pistol subject to a condition that it is only for use in connection with the shooting of vermin.
(2) For the purposes of this section, "shot pistol" means a smooth-bored gun which is chambered for .410 cartridges or 9mm rim fire cartridges.").
The noble Baroness said: This amendment would exempt shot pistols from the general prohibition on handguns in certain limited circumstances. It has been tabled in response to a commitment given by the right honourable Ann Widdecombe in another place on 19th November 1996 reported at cols. 871-872. A shot pistol is a smooth bore pistol which is chambered for .410 cartridges and specifically designed for vermin control inside barns and outbuildings. The relatively low power of the small shot cartridges minimises the damage to the fabric of the building.
There are times when a shot pistol is the most humane and effective way of destroying vermin. If a good reason can be produced for possession of such a weapon then
Of course, anyone applying for a certificate for this purpose will be subject to the new more stringent regime for firearm certificates which is introduced by the Bill, such as having to provide two referees.
Again perhaps I may take this opportunity to thank my noble friend Lord Attlee for his comments on the amendment earlier in the afternoon.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
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