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Baroness Blatch: Again, I invite my noble friend to read the account in Hansard. This is another amendment to which I referred when discussing this group of amendments. I hope that he will read Hansard and if perhaps he remains concerned will come back at a later stage of the Bill.
Lord Swansea: I am grateful to my noble friend for that answer. I shall certainly study her comments in Hansard. I may come back to this matter at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 10 [Surrender of prohibited small firearms and ammunition]:
Lord McIntosh of Haringey moved Amendment No. 30:
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 31 and 32. This is rather a different issue from that debated in the past few hours. It is a practical concern and I hope that it can be dealt with reasonably speedily.
The concern has been expressed by those who are worried about the international gun trade and in particular about the possibility that the enforced disposal/illegality of handguns in this country could lead to increased exports of handguns, particularly to countries where they might be misused. I am not quite sure what misuse of a handgun is for these purposes, but so be it.
Amendment No. 30 provides that the Secretary of State "shall" make arrangements:
Amendment No. 31 provides that in addition to securing the orderly surrender of firearms or ammunition, the Secretary of State shall make arrangements:
Amendment No. 32 adds to Clause 10 the provision that there shall be no export licences granted after this Bill receives Royal Assent. The Minister will be aware that there has already been concern that the number of applications for licences has been increasing since the Bill was published and could continue to increase unless action is taken--I do not ask for retrospective action--to ensure that there is no increase in exports of handguns.
I am aware of course under existing procedures--this was confirmed by a Minister in another place in a Written Answer--that all of those exports require licences. But at the same time there is a provision for, for example, dealer to dealer licences which can continue for as long as three years. There is therefore a risk that instead of being securely disposed of, exports of handguns may take place which, while possibly reducing the crime rate in this country, may increase crime rates or civil disturbance in other countries.
The question was raised briefly in Committee in another place. However, I would be grateful for assurances from the Government that they are aware of the problem and will do everything in their power to deal with it. I beg to move.
Page 5, line 31, leave out ("may") and insert ("shall").
"to secure the orderly surrender ... of firearms or ammunition".
I am sure that that is the intention of the Government and I hope the Minister will be able to confirm that.
"for the secure disposal of such firearms and ammunition".
16 Jan 1997 : Column 369
Again, I am sure that that is the intention of the Secretary of State and the Government and I hope it will be confirmed in an answer.
9.15 p.m.
Lord Monson: I cannot support Amendment No. 32. In introducing the amendment the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, said that he did not know what "misuse" was. He was quite right to be dubious. Indeed, what misuse could there be?
Other countries do not have hang-ups about handguns--or pistols, as I prefer to call them. Other countries do not have the same strict controls for the most part, and therefore why should not guns be exported if they are no longer to be allowed here? Target shooting weapons are not suitable for crime on the whole because they have too long a barrel or are too heavy. They are not generally the sort of weapons in which criminals are interested. I would have thought it was desirable that, instead of being bought by the Government at large expense to the taxpayer, they should be exported whenever possible.
My Amendment No. 41, which I had understood would be grouped with Amendment No. 30 and to which we shall no doubt come on Tuesday, provides for that situation. I therefore oppose Amendment No. 32.
Earl Attlee: Both Members of the Committee are wrong. The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, is wrong to try to stop us from saving as much money as possible by restricting the export of weapons that we no longer
require and my noble friend Lord Monson is also wrong. Most of the handguns about which we are talking are not target pistols; they are ordinary revolvers--.38 Smith and Wessons--which are perfectly saleable overseas.
The Earl of Balfour: I am afraid that I must go back a little in history to when we were taking the 1988 Bill through this House. At that time a firearms dealer lived very close to me. He showed me some of the amazing catalogues of firearms sales that took place--many of them in Birmingham--around four or five times a year at which people seemed to sell machine guns and all sorts of other weapons which under any previous firearms legislation none of us would have been allowed to hold. I have no reason to believe that those sales do not still go on.
Many of the sales were between firearms dealers of different countries. I feel that where the necessary export licence exists, the sales should be permitted to continue. It is big business in this country. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, seeks to restrict private sales. But I have the impression that the inclusion of the words,
- "No export licence shall be granted",
Baroness Blatch: Perhaps I can respond to my noble friend Lord Balfour first. The specific weapons he mentioned are not the subject of the amendments addressed by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh. The concern of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh--if I may be permitted to put words into his mouth--relates to those people who will be disenfranchised of the ownership of the guns and who choose not to surrender them to the state in this country but wish to sell them abroad. My noble friend refers to rather larger and more dangerous weapons.
If my noble friend looks at Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968, he will see that anybody trading in the weapons about which he is talking requires a Section 5 certificate. There is no question of inhibiting exports abroad if it is a bona fide dealer with a Section 5 certificate. But there would have to be an export licence for the approval of any transaction abroad.
I come back to the particular amendments in the Marshalled List. There have been firearms amnesties in the past when firearms have been prohibited and they have been required to be surrendered. But the Government fully take the point that the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, is making that the compulsory surrender of handguns which is envisaged by the Bill is on a different scale from previous exercises of this kind which have been conducted. I can assure the noble Lord,
Lord McIntosh, that we are very much aware of all the possible difficulties and that we are actively working on the detail of what will happen with the police.It is not the Government's intention that guns and ammunition which are surrendered will be sold or exported. In previous amnesties and surrender exercises, such as the one we organised last year, the guns involved have invariably been melted down, except for a few of particular interest which were taken into museum collections or, very occasionally, retained for police armouries. Ammunition was disposed of safely and that is what will happen this time, too.
We recognise that some of those who currently possess higher calibre handguns may want to sell them to someone in another country where such handguns will remain lawful rather than surrendering their weapons to the police and receiving compensation under the scheme, which will be made under Clause 11. The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, is absolutely right. There will be a great variety of these weapons. Many of them will fall into the category mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Monson, and others will fall into the category mentioned by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee.
Those who want to export their firearms will need to obtain an export licence from the Department of Trade and Industry. So we envisage that the practice will continue, but under licence. Obtaining such a licence takes a little time for obvious reasons because the application must be checked for accuracy and omissions. Checks may be made, if necessary, to determine that the intended recipient of the firearm in another country has whatever authorities are required in that country to receive and to possess the firearm. Checks may also have to be made to make sure that there is no other reason why it would not be in the public interest for the firearm to be exported to the intended destination.
Clause 10 of the Bill enables the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Scotland to make the arrangements that they think fit to ensure that the handing in is conducted properly. There is no need to amend the Bill as envisaged by the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, to require them to do so or to require them to ensure that guns and ammunition which are surrendered for compensation are disposed of safely and are not exported.
These amendments have allowed us to put on record important aspects of a practical nature of receiving this quantity of ammunition and disposing of it safely and securely and also in making absolutely clear that there will be no objection in principle to weapons being sold abroad as long as they are subject to export licence.
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