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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, this has been a remarkable debate and I would not have missed a minute of it. Despite the obligation on the Minister to respond fully, as she has, I do not think that the House would thank me for attempting to summarise or to comment on each of the issues discussed this afternoon and this evening.
There are two fundamental issues, and the first very much more fundamental than the second. The first fundamental issue is whether it should be possible for the police to authorise themselves to enter people's homes or other premises without outside authority. On
that issue, everybody except the noble Lords, Lord Marsh and Lord Campbell of Alloway, and, with qualifications to which I shall come in a moment, the noble Lord, Lord Knights, has said--and, of course, the Minister--
Noble Lords: And Lord Gisborough!
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, and the noble Lord, Lord Gisborough. I beg his pardon. Each has said, "No, it should not be possible for the police to authorise themselves to bug premises". That is the fundamental issue on which the Government have given no ground whatsoever and that is the basis on which I am obliged to seek to put my amendment, Amendment No. 24, to the opinion of the House.
The second issue, which is much less important, relates to the mechanics used to provide prior judicial authorisation. I emphasise that the difference between my amendment and that tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, is nothing like as great as the issue between both of us and the Government. If that is what President Clinton calls "triangulation", so be it.
I remind myself of the difficulties which the Green Party in Germany got into when it was forced to divisions between the Realos--those who believed in collaboration, negotiation and in advancing step by step in order to make progress--and the Fundis--those who believed in the fundamental truth of a pure theological doctrine. In these circumstances, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Hillhead, has appealed to what he called "flexible ecumenism", but I am afraid that the position from which the noble Lord argues is the Fundi position, whereas I am the Realo.
Let us consider the difference between us. My amendment deals with premises, not with secondary bugging such as, for example, the bugging of vehicles to discover where they are going and where they have been. In that sense, our amendment is very much more practical than either the Government's proposals or those of the Liberal Democrats. Our amendment proposes that one of a body of commissioners--there is no reason why the commissioner who gives the approval should himself be responsible for checking on that approval afterwards--who is a senior High Court judge should give that approval. This is a realistic point because that proposal provides that the people giving the approval have knowledge of what they are doing and provide consistency throughout the country.
Thirdly and finally--I address this point particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Knights--our amendment provides that in a policing emergency it is possible for the police to go ahead, provided they get subsequent authorisation as soon as it is possible practically to do so.
I want to maximise the vote for civil liberties in this House and I ask all noble Lords who believe in that as well as in efficient policing to support my amendment. However, I have to advise the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, and his friends that, because I believe that their amendment is so fundamentally defective, I cannot support it if the Question on it is put subsequent to that
on my amendment and that I shall ask my noble friends to join me in not supporting it. Meanwhile, I beg to move that Amendment No. 24 be agreed to--
Lord Alexander of Weedon: My Lords, before the noble Lord--
Lord Alexander of Weedon: My Lords, I thought that I could ask a question before the noble Lord sat down. I wanted to ask him the single question: if it came to the choice, would he prefer the Liberal Democrats' amendment or the Government's amendment?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I do not believe that that is the choice--
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: No, my Lords, I do not believe that that is the choice. First, I think that the noble Lord will accept that if my amendment is carried, it will be nonsensical to put the Question on a further, conflicting amendment. If the amendment is defeated we must all put our heads together and force ourselves to find a method of maximising opposition to the Government in a way that is acceptable and attractive to all shades of opinion.
6.59 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 24) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 209; Not-Contents, 145.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Annan, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Avebury, L.
Barnett, L.
Bath, M.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bingham of Cornhill, L.
Blackstone, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Borrie, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Bridge of Harwich, L.
Brightman, L.
Broadbridge, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Browne-Wilkinson, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Callaghan of Cardiff, L.
Calverley, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Carter, L.
Castle of Blackburn, B.
Chandos, V.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chorley, L.
Clancarty, E.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Craigmyle, L.
Cross, V.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy (de Knayth), B.
David, B.
De Freyne, L.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donoughmore, E.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dundonald, E.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Ezra, L.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fisher of Rednal, B.
Fitt, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gallacher, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gladwyn, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B. [Teller.]
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]
Gregson, L.
Grey, E.
Hacking, L.
Halsbury, E.
Hampton, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hankey, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harrowby, E.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Healey, L.
Hemingford, L.
Hertford, M.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howell, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeffreys, L.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennet, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kilpatrick of Kincraig, L.
Kimball, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kinnoull, E.
Kintore, E.
Kirkwood, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lincoln, Bp.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lockwood, B.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Macaulay of Bragar, L.
McCarthy, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Mishcon, L.
Molloy, L.
Monkswell, L.
Monson, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Mountgarret, V.
Munster, E.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Norton, L.
Ogmore, L.
Paul, L.
Pender, L.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prior, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Richard, L.
Ritchie of Dundee, L.
Rix, L.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Russell, E.
St. Davids, V.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Selborne, E.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shannon, E.
Shaughnessy, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Spens, L.
Stallard, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strafford, E.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thurso, V.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Wallace of Coslany, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
White, B.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.
Winston, L.
Wolfson, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Ashbourne, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Balfour, E.
Beaverbrook, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Beloff, L.
Biddulph, L.
Birdwood, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brookes, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnock, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Cockfield, L.
Colwyn, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.] Cumberlege, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denbigh, E.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Derwent, L.
Dilhorne, V.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Downshire, M.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gainford, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gisborough, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardwicke, E.
Henley, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hood, V.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Huntly, M.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Kitchener, E.
Knights, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Layton, L.
Leigh, L.
Lindsay, E.
Liverpool, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.] Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
Marsh, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Merrivale, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Monteagle of Brandon, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moyne, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Nelson, E.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Peel, E.
Pike, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Quinton, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Reay, L.
Rennell, L.
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
Rodney, L.
Romney, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Saatchi, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strange, B.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Sudeley, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Terrington, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vivian, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wise, L.
Wrottesley, L.
Wynford, L.
Young, B.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
7.12 p.m.
Clause 91 [Authorisations to interfere with property etc.]:
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