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Page 68, line 25, at beginning insert ("Subject to sub-paragraph (1)(b),").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

20 Jan 1997 : Column 506

[Amendment No. 96 not moved.]

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 97:

Page 68, line 25, after ("The") insert ("Chief").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Baroness Hilton of Eggardon moved Amendment No. 98.

Page 68, line 25, leave out ("not give any") and insert (", provided that to do so would not be prejudicial to the continued discharge of the functions of any police authority, the functions of the Service Authority for the National Criminal Intelligence Service or the Service Authority for the National Crime Squad or the duties of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise, give his").

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, we are back to the commissioner not having to give reasons for a determination and not having to answer in any court. This amendment attempts to provide that he will give reasons for a determination, for his decision, provided that doing so would not be prejudicial to the functions of a police authority, or to the service authority for NCIS or to the service authority for the National Crime Squad.

We are again attempting to put some greater degree of openness into the system. Unless there are operational reasons why the commissioner should not give reasons for a determination, it should be exposed to the public gaze and the public should be aware of any reason that he may have for deciding that an authority has or has not been properly given for the use of surveillance equipment. We see it as an important safeguard of civil liberties that so far as possible without jeopardising operational efficiency and effectiveness the commissioner's actions should be open and the actions of the police should be open to scrutiny. I beg to move.

11.30 p.m.

Baroness Blatch: My Lords, again I must point out the parallels between the provisions contained in this Bill relating to the role and functions of these commissioners and those of the other commissioners. All will be dealing with serious crime and we see no reason why the role of a surveillance commissioner should be different.

The amendments tabled allow a commissioner to give reasons for his determination to the Prime Minister and the authorising officer. This is necessary if the authorising officer is to know why the commissioner does not believe an authorisation should have been given. The commissioner can also give reasons to the Prime Minister so that the Prime Minister will be aware of any concerns about the way in which these provisions are being used. It would, though, be extremely difficult for the commissioner to give reasons for his determination to a complainant without revealing details of the activities of the police and Customs and revealing damaging information about the techniques and methods being used. It would also, doubtless, lead to insubstantial complaints being made by criminals merely to test whether they are the subject of surveillance. I believe that the amendment would be the criminal's friend. I hope it will not be pressed.

Baroness Hilton of Eggardon: My Lords, my concern is for the innocent person who has been

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subjected to these surveillance techniques. Of course I have no concern for criminals in this situation, but inevitably mistakes will be made and innocent people will have bugs planted in their houses or have their telephones tapped or be subjected to other methods of surveillance. It is curious that the Government are not concerned for innocent people who may be exposed to these methods of surveillance. In a democracy it is surely important that these methods should be as open as possible to scrutiny.

There is the idea that people do not know about this equipment. However, one can buy it at Heathrow. One can buy a vast array of surveillance equipment in the duty-free part of Heathrow airport. There are also shops selling it. I saw one off Queensway the other day which sells this surveillance equipment. People who read thrillers, as I do, are well aware of the equipment that is available. Police often have the notion that things are secret when they are not. Sophisticated criminals of the kind we are talking about will be well aware of the equipment that is available.

I am concerned to protect innocent people who may be subjected to this surveillance in their homes. It is not a question of protecting criminals. In this amendment we have provided exemptions for situations where operational effectiveness would be jeopardised. I am talking about the innocent citizen who is subjected to bugging in his house. That is something the Minister seems to fail to gather when she talks about amendments supporting criminals. Nevertheless, at this late hour, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 99 not moved.]

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 100:

Page 68, line 28, after ("the") insert ("Chief").

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Baroness Blatch moved Amendments Nos. 101 to 104:

Page 68, line 29, leave out from ("may") to the end of line 34 and insert ("(whether or not he has exercised, or intends to exercise, the powers under section 96(1C))").
Page 68, line 35, leave out ("granted") and insert ("gave").
Page 68, line 36, leave out ("granted") and insert ("given").
Page 68, line 37, after ("the") insert ("Chief").

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, these amendments have already been dealt with. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendment No. 105 not moved.]

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 106:

Page 68, leave out lines 38 to 44.

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this amendment is grouped with Amendments Nos. 109, 121 and 126. These amendments are intended for the purposes of clarification and interpretation only. They are intended to provide clarification and assist in the interpretation of certain of the Bill's provisions. Amendment No. 126 represents a transfer of the

20 Jan 1997 : Column 508

definition of criminal proceedings from where it was previously located in Schedule 7. Amendment No. 106 deletes the previous reference. These changes are necessary as there is now more than one reference to criminal proceedings in the Bill and it is more appropriate that this definition be included in the specific interpretation clause. Amendment No. 109 is also intended for clarification and interpretation. Paragraphs (b) and (e) of Clause 91(6) refer specifically to the Metropolitan Police and the Royal Ulster Constabulary. These are the biggest police forces in the United Kingdom, and the operational demands on them are reflected in the fact that the Bill makes provision for more than one authorising officer. This amendment confirms that any written notification of reasons for an adverse decision from a commissioner will be directed either to the commissioner of police or the chief constable of these particular forces, as appropriate.

Amendment No. 121 ensures that the reference to serious crime is correctly read in accordance with the definition in Clause 91(5). I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 107 not moved.]

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 108:

Page 68, leave out lines 38 to 44.

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I have already spoken to this. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 109:

Page 69, line 10, at end insert--

("Interpretation
5. The references in this Schedule to the authorising officer who gave the authorisation or in whose absence it was given shall, in the case of an authorisation given by or in the absence of a person within paragraph (b) or (e) of section 91(6), be construed as references to the Commissioner of Police or, as the case may be, the Chief Constable mentioned in the paragraph concerned.").

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I spoke to this amendment with Amendment No. 106. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 97 [Supplementary provisions relating to Commissioner]:

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 110:

Page 38, line 35, after first ("The") insert ("Chief").

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this amendment was spoken to with Amendment No. 50. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendments Nos. 111 to 114 not moved.]

Baroness Blatch moved Amendments Nos. 115 and 116:

Page 38, line 39, after ("the") insert ("Chief").
Page 39, line 1, after first ("the") insert ("Chief").

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The noble Baroness said: My Lords, both these amendments were spoken to with Amendment No. 50. I beg to move.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

[Amendment No. 117 not moved.]

Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 118:

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