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Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: Amendment No. 46 in the name of my noble friend Lord Swansea and Amendment No. 47, which I am happy to speak to as well, at the invitation of the noble Lord, Lord Monson, both permit members of licensed pistol clubs approved by the Secretary of State who are not firearm certificate holders to possess and use any firearm or ammunition at such a club. They allow a person to join a club and shoot with pistols indefinitely without ever being vetted by the police as to their suitability. The Government believe that that is not acceptable. The Government have made it clear that no one should be permitted to possess or fire a pistol without holding an individual firearm certificate in their own right. That means that everyone will have been checked thoroughly by the police before being allowed to come into possession of a pistol. The Government accept that to some extent that may discourage people from taking up pistol shooting. However, we do not believe that this is an area where public safety should be compromised. We believe that we have a considerable measure of support in that position.
Those who wish to take up pistol shooting--a number of noble Lords have suggested that the demand exists--will be able, before committing themselves to the process of obtaining a firearm certificate, to gain some experience of shooting with low-powered air pistols. We believe that that is a possible way of bringing younger
people into the sport, if that is what they wish to do. On that basis, I invite the Committee to reject both amendments if they are pressed to a vote.
Earl Attlee: The Minister suggests that a prospective shooter should acquire a firearm certificate. Once he acquires a firearm certificate, will he not then be encouraged to go the next step and buy his own pistol? On the other hand, if he did not need a certificate at all but could only use a pistol in the gun club, he would not be encouraged to go and buy another weapon, and that would keep the number of weapons in circulation down.
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: I do not accept that the acquisition of a firearm certificate necessarily encourages a person to purchase a pistol for his ownership and use. That is a personal matter for the individual concerned. For the reasons I have given, the Government believe that it is important to have the highest standard of safety and control over those who fire pistols. We believe that the only way in which that can be achieved is by ensuring that anyone who seeks to use a pistol has a firearm certificate. The inevitable consequence of either of the amendments is to frustrate that intention.
Lord Gisborough: I am somewhat appalled by that answer. First, because the Minister mentioned air guns and secondly, because he mentioned the firearm certificate.
All sports have to be taken up at an early age. One cannot take up any sport at 30 or so and expect to be good at it. All sports should be taken up when people are young and able to learn. So people go into this sport at the age of 18 or so. But how can one possibly expect an 18 year-old to buy a licence for £150? I may be wrong but that is how I understand Clause 14. That is out of all proportion to what a young person would be earning.
The Minister said that people could play around with air rifles. If he were to read my local press he would find out exactly what they do with air rifles. They wait until Dolly is leaning over and when she is facing south, they shoot her in the northside. They shoot animals and all sorts of things. Every single waymarking sign is peppered with air rifle shot.
The Minister seems to suggest that young people should be encouraged to take up air pistols, of all things. I cannot think of anything worse. If youngsters want to have an air pistol, it would be far better to have them under control in a club where they have no possibility of taking that pistol anywhere other than onto a firing point--certainly not take it off a firing point. To invite them to go around the countryside shooting with air pistols! I cannot think of anything worse.
Lord Monson: I wholly understand the Government's wish that people should not indefinitely be able to fire pistols in clubs without a licence. I fully accept that and would happily agree with it. But the
Government seem to be opposed to people trying it out even once or twice and I wonder whether that is not wholly unreasonable.The Minister spoke about public safety. Can he explain how possibly public safety could be endangered by someone trying out a pistol at a range, under the close supervision of an experienced official in a club? That same person could fire a .22 rifle anywhere without anybody's supervision.
6.15 p.m.
The Earl of Balfour: Let me raise one other point at this stage. Clause 36 of the Bill introduces a new Section 15 to the 1988 Act. At page 20 of the Bill, subsection (2) of the clause states that:
- "A club may be approved as a rifle or miniature rifle club by the Secretary of State under section 15 of the 1988 Act and also licensed under this Act as a pistol club".
I wonder whether the Government would look at this matter again. I believe that people should be encouraged to learn how to shoot properly but not necessarily go to the extent of having a firearm certificate purely to use a pistol.
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: At the outset, I should make clear that nothing I said earlier should be construed as suggesting that either I or the Government encourage people to play around with air rifles or air pistols. I sought to indicate that the use of low powered air pistols, no doubt under the supervision of gun club members, could be a way of training young people in the use of such weapons, so that they learn how to use them and find out whether they are interested in the sport.
Lord Gisborough: Youngsters go around the countryside with air rifles and nobody is training them at all. You can find them anywhere in the countryside.
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: I am well aware of that. But I seek to address the concern raised by my noble friend of how gun clubs might encourage younger people into the clubs. I venture to suggest that making it possible for them to use air pistols under supervision and training might be a way for them to acquire some practical experience. It will not only teach them the importance of safety, which my noble friend Lord Balfour has mentioned on more than one occasion, but will enable them to find out whether it is a sport in which they are interested. I believe that my noble friend Lord Balfour is correct in his reference to what happens at rifle clubs. If he and I are right, it is another means by which knowledge and experience can be gained before the young person needs to move on and acquire a firearm certificate.
I do not demur from the position that the requirement to have a firearm certificate before a pistol can be used will serve to discourage some young people from coming into the sport. I do not deny that at all. Equally, I hope the Committee will recognise that the Government have gone some way toward preserving the sport and in particular the Olympic competitions and the vast majority of the Commonwealth Games competitions and toward providing an incentive for people to remain in the sport, if they so wish. A balance has to be struck.
If either of the amendments were carried, it would be possible for people to come into gun clubs, learn how to use pistols and use them indefinitely without any check whatsoever by the police as to their suitability to have such experience. They would acquire the expertise and the experience and what they did thereafter would, as I said, be subject to no vetting by the police at all. That is why the Government remain resolutely opposed to the amendments and invite the Committee to vote against them, if either of them are pressed.
I should mention one other small matter on a point of detail. I understand that the cost of a firearm certificate would not be £150--that is the figure mentioned in Clause 14(5). That is the fee for the licence for a club and not for the firearm certificate itself.
Lord Monson: Before the Minister sits down, can he say whether club pistols will be allowed which will be able to be used by anybody with a valid firearm certificate?
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: My understanding is that that is the position. That reinforces the point that I sought to make earlier; namely, that the fact that one has a firearm certificate does not require one to own a pistol as well.
Lord Swansea: We have had a good run for our money on this amendment. My object in moving it was to cater for the person--a young chap, perhaps--who is not a member of a rifle club and wants to have a go at the sport. He may have an older friend who is a member of a club and he may have said to him: "I would not mind having a go myself", so his friend may have said: "Come along to the club one evening and we will let you have a go and you can see how you like the game". Of course, he would have his go under strict supervision, and among the first things he would be taught would be the first rules of safety. That is quite essential in the handling of any firearm. Under the eye of an experienced instructor he would have instruction in the safe handling of the weapon before having a go at targets.
In any event, there seems to be a certain amount of confusion in the mind of the Government over this. I may well return to it at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 16 [Licence conditions]:
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