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Earl Attlee moved Amendment No. 46A:
The noble Earl said: The amendment seeks to remove the imprisonment penalty for offences against Clause 16. The problem is that the law and the rules and regulations that go with it are acquiring a Byzantine complexity. The Minister will point out the protection provided by subsection (3), but it is not a defence against ignorance; it is only a defence against accidental commission of the offence. One cannot take all reasonable steps against the commission of an offence if one is in ignorance of it in the first place.
The result of subsection (4) as drafted, coupled with all the other responsibilities in terms of security and administration, is likely to result in no suitable people agreeing to be club officials and particularly key holders. As a result, the officials selected may not be the best available, with the attendant risks of offences being committed. I beg to move.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: If the Government's view is that this amendment is inappropriate, I support their view. This goes to the heart of the control of clubs. It is fatuous to impose conditions on a licence--and those conditions are only imposed on the persons responsible for the management of a licensed pistol club, with all the possible public dangers that do not need to be spelt out--and it is useless to have licence conditions imposed upon those who manage licensed pistol clubs if the only sanction against not obeying the licence conditions is a fine.
I would suggest that the Government have pitched this correctly. They have limited the punishment to the magistrates' court--that is summary conviction--and they have put the imprisonment at the maximum single term imposable by the magistrates at six months. That is a maximum, not an automatic penalty. As the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, indicated, there is the saving defence in subsection (3). If somebody is going to propose himself or herself to manage a licensed pistol club without familiarising his or her mind with the details of the licensing conditions, I suggest that such a person is not fit to manage such a club.
Lord Burton: I may be wrong, but I believe that the Bill will introduce 16 new criminal offences or increased penalties for existing offences. Certainly, if there are not 16 offences, there are a great many penalty clauses. Who would be a club official when, for a simple omission, perhaps when he is off sick, he would be liable for a very heavy fine or six months' imprisonment? It may be that the poor wife of a shooter, who does not even shoot herself, would find herself in this position. I suggest that no one in their right mind would take on the task of administering a club with these penalties in the Bill. As a result of that alone, it is doubtful whether any club will survive.
Lord Gisborough: Unfortunately, we must support the penalties, because I also cannot see any point in having regulation unless there is some penalty for non-compliance. I should have thought that on the whole magistrates and the police are sensible enough to take a
Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: In rising to oppose the amendment of the noble Earl, I welcome the support I received from the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, and my noble friend Lord Gisborough.
If the public are to be assured about the safety of the pistol clubs licensed under the new regime, which the Government propose in this legislation, it would be essential that those responsible for their operation pay the closest attention to the conditions that may be specified on their licences. For that reason it would be quite wrong, and would send quite the wrong message, if we were to agree to reduce the penalty for committing the offence of breaching the licence conditions.
Of course, what the Bill sets out is the maximum penalty, which one imagines would only be imposed for the most extreme breach of the licence conditions. The law relating to firearms is currently complex and it will become more complex once this Bill becomes law. But it will be a necessary part of the management of gun clubs that those responsible for the management are aware of the law and the implications of the law.
In the debates on this Bill the House has been assured on a number of occasions that those interested in the sport of shooting are responsible members of society. I am happy to accept that assurance. That leads me to express a measure of surprise that they do not welcome the sanction remaining as it is, because it will mean that if an individual manager fails to live up to the high standards which everyone in society would wish him to follow and does so wilfully, he should be properly punished. Nothing we have heard in the debates on this Bill suggests that it will be impossible for the conditions to be understood and followed. If they are followed, there is no reason to worry about the penalty. On the other hand, if we weaken the penalty, it will suggest that this House does not say clearly to those involved in the sport that the licence conditions are important. For those reasons I hope it will be possible for this amendment to be withdrawn.
Earl Attlee: The Committee will be pleased to hear that I will not push this amendment very far. My major concern is the complexity of the legislation. I accept fully the contributions of the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn, and the Minister regarding the desirability of having penalties.
I believe that to find people willing to be club secretaries and club officials will be quite difficult. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 20 [Exemptions from section 1 of the 1968 Act for officers etc. of licensed pistol clubs]:
Earl Attlee moved Amendment No. 48:
Page 9, line 10, leave out ("imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or").
Before Clause 25, insert the following new clause--
(" .--(1) There shall be established a National Firearms Computer Database (NFCD) to--
(a) record the possession, use and keeping of, and transactions in, firearms and shotguns;
(b) record details of pistol clubs and ranges as prescribed by the Secretary of State;
(c) provide on-line access to all police forces;
(d) provide access by the Secretary of State for the purpose of statistical analysis; and
(e) provide tandem interface with the Police National Computer.
(2) The NFCD shall be operated in accordance with the principles of ISO 9000.").
The noble Earl said: This small group of amendments concerns the desirability of having a computer system or a database to record details of holders of firearms certificates, shotgun certificates, dealers, clubs, ranges, etc.
I originally put down the amendment, since when the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has put down an amendment in his name. I believe that his amendment is slightly better than mine, so perhaps we may listen to the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, as he puts his amendment.
6.30 p.m.
Lord Marlesford: In rising to speak to my amendment, I must say that in my opinion the Home Office must bear and accept some share of the blame for the tragedy of Dunblane. I say that for the simple reason that the Home Office has failed--indeed, I would claim has refused--to introduce a licensing regime which has a reasonable chance of ensuring that a Thomas Hamilton could not obtain or retain a licence for a lethal firearm, whether a pistol, a rifle or a shotgun. However much the Committee may be divided on the merits of the Bill, we are all clearly united in our horror at Dunblane and in our determination to ensure that there should not be another one. Yet there is nothing in the Bill which does anything to make less likely that there could not be another Dunblane using a rifle or shotgun; in other words, some firearm that is not covered by the Bill.
My amendment seeks to introduce a simple computerised register nationally of all those who hold a licence for a firearm of any kind, whether a pistol that is in one of the remaining categories allowed, a rifle or a shotgun. Long before Dunblane, as some noble Lords will know, I concerned myself with the adequacy of the present arrangements. Indeed, I was pressing the Government between the months of November 1995 and February 1996--the Dunblane tragedy was in March 1996--to do something about this for precisely the reason that the present system of each police force having its own system of licensing with no linkage between them was so wholly unacceptable. That system is quite inexcusable and quite unnecessary.
The technology for doing this is simple and extremely cheap. Indeed, I have made the simple calculation that for the number of people who have a licence for all
these weapons, the information could probably be contained in about one gigabyte of information, which a modern home desktop computer has in its hard storage. Even if the figure were 10 times that, it would be an immaterial factor.
The technology for this has not only been in existence but has been in use for decades. The vehicle and driver licensing system at Swansea was set up in 1973. That system enables the police to check instantly in real time on the driver of any vehicle. Yet there has been no suggestion that the Home Office could consider the suggestions that have been made for the introduction of such a scheme for firearms. If the Government are as unwilling to consider my suggestion as they have been up to now, I shall feel bound to ask the Committee to support me in a vote on this issue.
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