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Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: Without the assistance on this occasion of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, I oppose this amendment. I consider that it would represent a quite unwarranted extension of police powers to enter a person's home without achieving any significant addition to public safety. If all that is intended is that the police should turn up unannounced at a house and ask permission to carry out a check, there is nothing to prevent them from doing so, but the amendment carries with it the implication that, irrespective of consent, a random check should be carried out. That is why the amendment, as tabled, is objectionable.
If the police have reason to suspect that a certificate holder may be breaching the conditions for secure storage which are part of his licence--for example, if they receive reports from neighbours or visitors that guns are being left lying around in the house--there is power to act under Section 46 of the Firearms Act 1968, which was discussed with the last amendment.
As I have indicated, this amendment would entitle the officers to act without warrant. In our view it is unjustified, and in those circumstances I invite the noble Earl to withdraw the amendment.
The Earl of Mar and Kellie: On hearing the noble and learned Lord's response to that, I agree with him that the amendment is more unpleasant than I had intended it to be. In that case, I am extremely keen to withdraw it. There is a requirement to meet the needs that I mentioned earlier. We need some device to make certain that weapons are stored in the correct cabinets. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 36 [Approved rifle clubs]:
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 71:
The noble Baroness said: The amendments tabled in my name are Amendments No. 71, 86, 89, 91, 93 and 94. They are grouped with Amendment No. 89 which will be spoken to by my noble friend Lord Balfour.
These are technical amendments which bring existing references in the Firearms Act 1968 and the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 into line with the equivalent terms in this Bill. The existing legislation uses the term,
The others are minor amendments which change the corresponding references in the previous legislation. There are no policy implications from these amendments and I hope that the Committee will accept them. I beg to move.
The Earl of Balfour: As my amendment is grouped with these amendments, I believe it appropriate to speak to it now. On page 1 of the Bill, Clause 1(3), in their wisdom the Government propose that for the word "rifle" there shall be substituted the words "rifled gun". Therefore, I am suggesting to the Committee that in the interpretation section, Section 57, that for the word "rifle" we substitute the words,
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 36, as amended, agreed to.
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 73:
Page 19, line 28, leave out ("in, or").
"in, or in connection with"
when speaking of certain activities. The effect of the amendment is to replace that with the simpler term "in connection with" which already occurs in Clauses 3, 4 and 26.
"'rifled gun' includes 'carbine'".
I shall move that amendment when we come to it.
After Clause 37, insert the following new clause--
(" . In the Schedule to the 1988 Act (firearms and ammunition in museums to which the Schedule applies)--
(a) the existing provisions of paragraph 5 shall be numbered as sub-paragraph (1) of that paragraph;
(b) after that sub-paragraph there shall be inserted the following sub-paragraphs--
"(2) This Schedule also applies to any museum or similar institution in Great Britain which is of a description specified in an order made for the purposes of this sub-paragraph by the Secretary of State and whose collection includes or is to include firearms.
(3) An order under sub-paragraph (2) above may specify any description of museum or similar institution which appears to the Secretary of State to have as its purpose, or one of its purposes, the preservation for the public benefit of a collection of historical, artistic or scientific interest.
(4) The power to make an order under sub-paragraph (2) above shall be exercisable by statutory instrument.").
The noble Baroness said: My right honourable friend the Secretary of State gave a commitment to table an amendment on museums during the debate at Second Reading in another place on 12th November (at col. 186 of Hansard). The new clause in my name will extend the scope of the power to grant a museum firearms licence under the Schedule to the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988. Museum firearms licences are currently only issued to museums which satisfy certain criteria and are maintained wholly or mainly out of money provided by Parliament or by a local authority.
The new clause will give my right honourable friend the Secretary of State the power to designate other museums and institutions which satisfy the same criteria but are not funded out of money provided by Parliament or by a local authority. In practice this is likely to be by reference to such bodies if they are currently registered with the Museums and Galleries Commission. It will mean that it will be possible for these museums, which include many regimental museums, to apply for a museum firearms licence allowing them to continue to keep handguns in their collections after these become generally prohibited, without the need for a separate authority from the Secretary of State. I beg to move.
The Earl of Balfour: In Clause 17 of the Bill, the duration of a licence for clubs is now six years. In the Schedule to the 1988 Act, paragraph 5, the period is stated as five years. I wonder whether between now and Report stage my noble friend the Minister will consider that it should be changed to six years.
Baroness Blatch: I can give my noble friend an assurance that I shall think about that between now and Report stage.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Earl Peel moved Amendment No. 74:
The noble Earl said: Section 8 of the Firearms Act 1968 kindly provides that,
In the ordinary course of business a firearms dealer will be in possession of firearms at his place of business and must also be in possession of them when transporting them; for example, to or from a client, when having repaired a firearm or otherwise testing it and so on. At all times the relevant conditions relating to security apply and this provision, which has existed since 1920, has caused no known difficulties of enforcement or security. If a dealer establishes a new place of business he must notify the police under Section 37 of the 1968 Act.
However, a conviction was obtained in R v. Evans when a dealer agreed the sale of a firearm to a client and delivered it to him at Bisley during a shooting competition. It was held by the Crown Court that since Bisley was not the dealer's registered place of business he was unlawfully in possession of a firearm. The situation created by that case has raised a great deal of uncertainty among the trade and those who have to administer the Act. Extensive correspondence between representatives of the gun trade and the Home Office over a period of years has failed to resolve this uncertainty about the meaning of Section 8. This amendment is designed to make the situation clear and to permit proper transactions in the ordinary course of a dealer's business subject to the very extensive restrictions which already exist. I beg to move.
The Earl of Balfour: I find this amendment rather complicated. Although I have great sympathy for what has just been said by my noble friend Lord Peel, the 1968 Act does not extend to Northern Ireland. Had my noble friend used the words "any part of Great Britain", I would have been happy to support the amendment. However, I do not believe that I can support it if it applies to the United Kingdom because of the extant clause in the 1968 Act.
Lord Kimball: I support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Peel. The amendment clears up a genuine mistake which has resulted in considerable unhappiness. More and more people will want to purchase firearms and take them to a range to try them out. That was exactly what happened in the unfortunate case involving Bisley. Of course, Bisley was the property of the National Rifle Association and it was not the dealer's property. But there is
After Clause 37, insert the following new clause--
(". At the end of section 8(1) of the 1968 Act (authorised dealing in firearms) there is added "in any part of the United Kingdom, whether or not on specified premises".").
"A person carrying on the business of a firearms dealer and registered as such under this Act, or a [servant] of such a person may, without holding a certificate, have in his possession, or purchase or acquire, a firearm or ammunition in the ordinary course of that business".
9 p.m.
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