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Lord Carr of Hadley: My Lords, looking ahead and not backwards--and I am not addressing that remark particularly to the Minister--does she not feel that the availability of those important new centres is so urgent that the Government should reconsider their previous refusal to allow them to be developed locally, not instead of the central bodies when they are set up but pending the setting up of those bodies? Meanwhile, the courts continue their work without the availability of those very important new centres given to them by Parliament. Does the Minister think that it is right to go on without bringing some centres into use?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I understand the point that my noble friend makes. First, we believe that the new centres are imminent. We are about to sign two contracts and we hope that it will not be too long before
we sign the third. We expect two and possibly three centres to be up and running by next summer. Therefore, my advice is that we should get on with it and get the places operational.As regards facilities close to home, there will be five centres spread geographically around the country. There will be two kinds of parents of those children. There will be co-operative and very concerned parents. I believe that they will be grateful that an opportunity is taken for highly disciplined educational training programmes which will help to return those young people to more law-abiding ways. Then there will be unco-operative parents. Quite frankly, I believe that any opportunity should be taken to help the children of such parents, whether or not the centre is close to home.
An absolutely key part of the management of the programmes is that not only will there be a structured programme for those young people but that there should be communication with their families. That is all built into the management of those training programmes. For some of those young children, being away from home might actually be good for them.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, it is disappointing that the Minister thought it necessary to pass off the responsibility for the delays on to local authorities. Will she not acknowledge that when the legislation was being considered, we warned the Government as to exactly what would happen? It is nothing to do with local authorities. It is bound to take this length of time to negotiate those complicated contracts. Will the Minister also acknowledge, bearing in mind the second question of the noble Lord, Lord Allen of Abbeydale, that we said at that time, and we still say, that the opportunity for expansion of local authority secure accommodation was there and has been missed by this misguided policy?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the opportunity has not been missed. We have 170 new places. More than half are up and running and almost all the remaining half will be up and running by June. The noble Lord opposed this policy in a very hostile way. His colleagues in local government oppose it. Perhaps I may give the noble Lord an example. In Medomsley, which is the site for one of the proposed centres, the local authority would simply not make the decision on planning permission within the required time. That has caused enormous delays while we have tried to further that particular application. In the meantime, the site for the unit, where there was a former detention centre--and it has been empty for five or six years--has been subject to the most incredible vandalism. If that had been a responsible council, it would have welcomed the development of that site, which would provide an opportunity to turn very persistent young offenders into more law-abiding citizens. We should have welcomed the noble Lord's support but we know that he and the party opposite are not supporting that policy.
Lord Hutchinson of Lullington: My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the centres will be run by private companies? If so, can she explain how you make a profit out of locking up children of 12 years of age?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, it is about the centres being well run. Within the Prison Service, prisons are being run more economically in financial terms and certainly as efficiently and in some cases more efficiently. It can be done. There will be an operations manual which will be made public for all your Lordships to see as soon as the contracts are signed. The noble Lord will be able to judge for himself, but we have every confidence that the centres will be well run, economically effective and, more important, that they will be operationally effective.
Lord Acton: My Lords, during the period when only the first two centres are operating, can the Minister say whether they will take young offenders just from their regions or from all over England and Wales, thereby causing grave difficulties for families and local social workers?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, perhaps I may suggest that these families are experiencing grave difficulties anyway. I must spell out to the noble Lord the fact that we are talking about 12 to 14 year-old young offenders. They will have to have been convicted for three or more imprisonable offences; they will have to have previously proved either unable or unwilling to comply with the requirements of a supervision order in the community; and the nature or seriousness of the offending must require custody in line with the criteria contained in Section 1 of the Criminal Justice Act 1991.
Therefore, such young people and their families are having grave troubles at present. It is true that it will be a national facility. Therefore, when such centres are up and running, the facility will be available to take children from across the country; and, indeed from Wales. I must point out again that we believe this facility will benefit those young people. We should welcome that fact.
Gurkhas: Accompanied Service in UK
3 p.m.
Lord Harding of Petherton asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Whether their review of provision for married accommodation for Gurkha soldiers in this country will result in the provision of accommodation for Gurkhas on the same scale as for British soldiers.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe): My Lords, as I informed the House on 14th January, I expect a decision on the review of Gurkha terms and conditions
of service to be announced within four weeks or so. My noble friend will be able to judge the content of the announcement then.
Lord Harding of Petherton: My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for that reply. However, I am afraid that he has not answered my Question. My understanding is that this has already been decided in the Ministry of Defence and that the entitlement of Gurkhas stationed in this country to married quarters will be on a lesser scale than that which they have always enjoyed. Can my noble friend say whether that decision can be reviewed? As Gurkhas stationed in Britain are to be attached to British battalions to make up the shortfall in the number of our own troops, surely it is not unreasonable that they should be treated more generously than in the past.
Earl Howe: My Lords, naturally I understand my noble friend's close interest in such matters. I can assure him that his concerns have been noted and that they will be taken into account. However, as he will appreciate, what I cannot do is pre-empt the announcement on Gurkha terms and conditions which we expect to make next month.
Lord Haskel: My Lords, can the Minister tell the House whether difficulties are being experienced in providing married accommodation for the Gurkhas because the Armed Services have recently sold off all their married quarters?
Earl Howe: My Lords, I should point out to the noble Lord that we have also leased back the majority of the married quarters to accommodate those entitled to them. I can assure him that, if accompanied service in the UK is something that we decide to offer to Gurkhas, there will be sufficient married quarters to accommodate those families so entitled.
Russia
3.2 p.m.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What arrangements they consider should be made to associate Russia more closely with western international institutions, in parallel with the planned enlargement of NATO to Poland and other former Warsaw Pact countries.
Lord Chesham: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government co-operate with Russia in organisations of which Russia is a member, such as the Council of Europe and the International Monetary Fund, and support Russia's closer engagement with others such as the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. In addition to encouraging Russia to play a full part in the North Atlantic Co-operation Council and Partnership for Peace, NATO is willing to build a new relationship with Russia which reflects her essential
role in European security. This could include the establishment of a joint body overseeing political consultation and military co-operation, perhaps enshrined in a charter.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. However, as I am sure the noble Lord is aware, Mr. Solana, the Secretary-General of NATO, has, within the last week, been talking about a relationship with Russia which involves a permanent Russian mission within NATO headquarters and a permanent NATO mission in association with Russian defence--in effect, country membership of NATO. That seems to be in the business of transforming NATO into a European security organisation. As I understand it--and the Minister may be able to help me--we are talking about the same sort of relationship with the Ukraine. Do the British Government accept that we are in the business of changing the whole nature of NATO as we make these arrangements with the Russians, the Ukrainians and other non-members?
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