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Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: My Lords, as the Minister has gone off on the subject of the essential services generally, which I for one was unable to debate because the subject is not in the Motion, will he agree that in many of the countries which he obviously has in mind such as Italy and Spain and to some extent Germany--there are other examples in Western Europe too--it is the case that the law requires the employer and the unions to try to agree on what is an essential service or, in the case of Italy, an indispensable minimum service? Does he not have that in mind?
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: My Lords, I appreciate that there is a wide variety of models that have been followed through seeking to define what are essential services. The approach that we have taken is that that route is too complicated. It is for that reason that we have spelt out the approach that we have taken in this Green Paper.
As the noble Lord appreciated, under our proposals even in a sensitive area a union can call industrial action provided it acts responsibly and organises that action in a way which avoids the risk of serious damage and disruption to third parties. In some countries that would simply not be permitted even if there were not the risk of serious damage or disruption.
Lord McCarthy: My Lords, this is the last time that I shall interrupt. I thought I heard the noble and learned Lord refer to the right to strike in this country.
If there is a breach of contract one can be dismissed for doing that. There is no right to strike in this country.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: My Lords, if the noble Lord wants me to elaborate on that shorthand, I believe that he will appreciate exactly what I mean. For example, if at the present time one works within the Royal Mail and the right procedures are followed through, it is open to one to go on strike. If one happens to be in much the same position in Germany, that is not an opportunity which is open to the worker. That distinction is perfectly obvious to the noble Lord.
The centre part of this debate turns on the issue of the disproportionate or excessive effects. I say again to the noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, that I am grateful for his acknowledgement that the concept of proportionality is understood in our law, certainly at the stage when one is looking to interim interdictus, as I would describe it, or an interim injunction.
The noble Lord, Lord Rochester, rightly made the point that judges are not much enamoured of becoming embroiled in the details of an industrial dispute. Perhaps I may refer him to paragraph 2.7 of the Green Paper where it is specifically acknowledged that that is an issue. It points out:
- "However, the courts would not be required to judge the merits of a dispute. The notion of 'disproportionate or excessive effects' relates to whether the impact on those affected by the industrial action is reasonable, not to any relation between the purpose of the action and its effects".
We also spell out in that part of the Green Paper how we believe the legal criteria might be established and how the courts might interpret them. I am bound to say that I do not see, certainly at the stage of seeking an interdict or an injunction, that there would be anything like the difficulties that some have claimed would follow from it. I predict that, were such a change to be introduced, as is the case at the present time, the prospects of anyone following through to the time when damages might be sought would be very limited indeed. If the matter had been resolved at the time of injunction or interdict, I would anticipate that the narrowing of the immunity to exclude actions with disproportionate or excessive effect would mean that actions for damages would continue to be rare.
Another matter that has been raised is the threshold for a ballot majority. It is worth recalling that under the existing legislation those who have to participate in the ballot do not now have any great task to perform. After all, ballot papers are now sent to their homes with a reply-paid envelope. Members have every opportunity to vote. They do not even have to leave their own homes to achieve that level of participation.
The noble Lord, Lord Wedderburn, and others will be aware that there are other examples of thresholds higher than a simple majority in our company law. Perhaps I may take another example which I have no
doubt will not appeal to the noble Lord. Nevertheless, he might like to look to the arrangements in the European Parliament where such a weighted majority is required. I accept that that example will not appeal to all Members of your Lordships' House. Indeed, I looked around to see whether my noble friend Lord Pearson was in his place before I dared to make it. My simple point is this: the idea that there has never been any circumstance in which such a majority has been required or is considered desirable is nonsense. It is absurd to describe it as somehow being anti-democratic when it is in fact part of the procedures of the European Parliament. However undesirable one may find that, it is absurd to caricature it as something that no civilised society would ever contemplate.
Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is putting words into our mouths about civilised societies. He mentioned company law, but we are speaking not of a qualified majority of, say, three-quarters or two-thirds; we are speaking of a majority of the electorate or of what I would call the "gross majority". Where in company law can one find that?
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: My Lords, if the noble Lord looks to what I said, he will see that I did not say that there was such a majority in company law; I said that there were examples of special majorities. I am sure that the noble Lord recognises that I deployed that phrase because it covers a range of circumstances and more than a simple majority of those voting.
Lord Monkswell: My Lords, I wonder about the prospect for government business if the same rules were to apply in this House and if the Government had to secure 600-odd votes to get their business through.
Lord Fraser of Carmyllie: My Lords, I have now made the point rather too clear. It would be a great help if the noble Lord could sometimes listen to just something that is said. As far as I am aware, it is no part of our arrangements that we shall allow for ballot papers and reply-paid envelopes to be delivered to the home of every Member of your Lordships' House. As the noble Lord has not understood that, I am given the opportunity to repeat in the simplest of words how easy it is for any member of a trade union to participate in a strike.
The noble Lord, Lord Rochester, caused my jaw to drop by indicating that he had given me notice of a question. I am afraid that I have not received that notice, but I hope that I can answer his question now. The statutory requirement for company reports to contain a statement describing the actions taken within the financial year to promote various forms of employee involvement has, frankly, generally added little to our knowledge in this area. That is a pity because other evidence shows that British companies have a multitude and a growing number of ways of involving employees. The wealth and diversity of voluntary employee involvement reinforces the
Government's view that rigid legislation, such as the works council directive, would be disruptive and damaging if ever applied in the United Kingdom.Despite what the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, said about the colour of the cover of the document, I emphasise that it is, indeed, a Green Paper. This is a complex area and we have benefited from listening to the expert and informed opinion of noble Lords. The consultation period on the Green Paper lasts until the end of next month. Once all the responses are in, the Government will consider how to proceed. The President of the Board of Trade has already made it clear that legislative proposals are unlikely to be forthcoming before the election. Anyone with any understanding of parliamentary procedures will recognise the impossibility of achieving such legislation within that period. However, I urge all those who have views to respond to the document.
The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, referred to a number of organisations and their views. I must advise her that at present, not unexpectedly, we have not yet received any significant range of views in the department. However, I anticipate that such views will be received before 28th February.
I rather suspect that we shall see a repeat of what has happened at almost every stage of our gradual approach to the reform of industrial relations. As each step has been taken and after each step has been taken, it has grudgingly been agreed that that step was the right one to take. Once again, it seems that in this debate we have heard the same "A bridge too far" speech which we hear repeatedly from noble Lords on the Opposition Benches.
We believe that there is a strong case for limited and targeted action in this area. Last year's disputes demonstrated all too clearly how intemperate industrial action can disrupt normal activity. Our Green Paper puts forward limited, fair and workable proposals to address the problem. The proposals provide the necessary protections for business and the general public while--and I emphasise this--preserving the essential freedoms of workers to exercise democratic control over their unions.
8.46 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, my noble and learned friend has taken a remarkable line which has covered the whole of the argument that I would have wished to address in reply, so all that I wish to do is to thank all noble Lords for having spoken. They have not spoken in vain because it has been demonstrated beyond all peradventure that neither the Labour Party nor the Liberal Party has any policy whatever to deal with this situation. The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, said, "I have had a word with Mr. Blair. He is going to be tough on strikes". That is no good. How does Mr. Blair propose to deal with a situation analogous to that of London Underground or the Royal Mail? That is what we want to know. That is why I put down this debate--to try to find out whether the parties opposite have any policies at all. They have not.
I am obliged to all who have spoken. This has served one purpose that I sought, but I am a little disappointed. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion for Papers.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.
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