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Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that detailed response. I am very glad that once the radar surveys have been reduced to a position in which they can be made readily available the department will ensure that they will be. I say the "department" advisedly. That is encouraging news. I do not know what timespan the Minister has in mind but I am sure that it will be done as rapidly as possible.
I am glad about the proposal for the PSSA around Cuba. I was thinking of something nearer home than Cuba, but it is important that this concept should be implemented with much greater rapidity than has been the case so far. I garnered from what the Minister said that he shares that view. He did not indicate what specific initiative the United Kingdom Government have taken. However, I shall not press him on that now because it does not arise directly out of what we have been saying. He may wish to drop me a line about that in due course.
I listened carefully to what the Minister had to say about prematurity and about having too many MEHRAs. I shared that view and said so at Second Reading. One could find the situation becoming very confusing if we had a proliferation of MEHRAs. That is therefore something to be avoided. However, I am not looking for that. I am looking for some progress in relation to them. I think the Minister has been characteristically helpful in defining the Government's position. I am not entirely sure about the legalities, but that is a matter which no doubt my honourable friends in another place will want to consider.
I close by saying that the Minister has been very open indeed about these matters. I am grateful for that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 [Powers of intervention where shipping accident threatens pollution]:
Lord Clinton-Davis moved Amendment No. 2:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment stands in my name and in the names of my noble friend Lord Berkeley and the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that the definition of an accident does not lead to a delay in intervention by being unduly restrictive. I said last time that I took the view that the word "imminent" could be unduly restrictive and that that in consequence could undermine or at least constrain at least the intervention powers which would be available to the Secretary of State when the Bill is enacted.
Perhaps I may give an example of what I mean. If a tanker were to lose its engine power offshore and winds threatened to blow it ashore within a relatively short period of time--say, 36 hours--the master might feel that he was placed under a good deal of pressure to argue that the situation did not constitute an imminent threat of material damage to the ship or to its cargo. This amendment would avoid that possible anomaly because the Secretary of State could avoid situations
I know the Minister will say that what he is doing is to follow the wording that has been agreed internationally. However, would the word "imminent" undermine the position that already obtains under such agreements? I do not think it would. It would lead to a better definition of the circumstances in which the Secretary of State could intervene. That clarity would be of enormous help. I hope the Minister will feel that my point is worthy of further consideration. I beg to move.
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I understand the argument that the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, is deploying. I see what he is driving at. I believe that I can reassure him. I have looked at the matter again between the various stages of the Bill and I have taken legal advice.
Clearly, in many respects it is in the UK's interest for the intervention powers to be as wide as possible. However, we need to take account--as the noble Lord read my mind--of existing international law. Both the Intervention Convention 1969 and the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea 1982 allow states to intervene when there is an imminent threat of material damage to a ship or cargo. The amendment would remove the word "imminent" and so make UK legislation inconsistent with international law.
The notion of an imminent threat of damage is also used in the international conventions on compensation for pollution damage caused by ships. Compensation is only available for reasonable measures taken to prevent an imminent threat of damage. The retention of the word "imminent" will therefore strengthen our case when arguing that the cost of our response to an incident should be compensated because the action taken was reasonable in the circumstances.
There is an important argument that we should keep the language of our domestic legislation as close as possible to international law in this area for the reasons I have outlined. The only reason for not doing so would be if we felt that our powers were unduly constrained because of not doing so. I am confident that retaining the word "imminent" would not unduly restrict our powers to intervene at the appropriate moment if we thought it necessary. For those reasons--I do not expect that the noble Lord will totally agree with me--I do not believe that we are being unduly restricted by the word "imminent". I have looked at the matter carefully. Therefore, on consideration, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I readily agree that the argument for maintaining total consistency with international legislation, which is relevant to this issue, is a powerful one. Perhaps the noble Viscount, with the leave of the House, will respond to this point. Obviously, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. I ask the department to maintain a careful watch on the situation to see whether circumstances do arise similar to those which I referred to earlier and where the
I ask the noble Viscount to indicate whether it is his view that it would be an advantage, after appropriate consideration of the implementation of the scheme, to ascertain within, say, a year, or two years at the outside, whether there would be a case for reconsidering the position. If the Minister is right and no constraints are seen to be operating, that will be very comforting. However, if doubts begin to develop it might be appropriate for the matter to be held under close review.
If I am right in the example I have quoted--and there may be others--then serious damage could arise where a delay on the part of a master to make a request for assistance occurred. I cannot ask the Minister to go further than that at the moment. I recognise that it is important because negotiations have taken place, the package has emerged, and it is important to give it a chance to operate. I hope that the debates that we have had will highlight a potential difficulty that may arise. I am sure that the Minister will feel that the debates have been of advantage.
Perhaps he will also indicate whether, if a difficulty were to arise, the Government would feel it appropriate to raise the issue once again in the International Maritime Organisation and the other fora to which he alluded. I recognise that this is speculative. I ask the Minister to intervene once again to answer the specific point as to whether he believes that the department should hold the issue under review to see whether my anxieties were becoming very real in practice. I believe that that is a reasonable request to make, and I hope that the Minister will answer in the affirmative before I withdraw the amendment.
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, with the leave of the House, it may be helpful if I respond to the specific point that the noble Lord raised. The fact that the word "imminent" occurs in the Bill should be taken in the context that we are already familiar with its terminology in intervention matters. The word "imminent" is known and understood. I am sure that if there had been any feeling within my department or the Coastguard Agency that people are, or would be, unnecessarily fettered by that word it would have been brought to my attention. I have inquired further and that is very definitely the case--that is to say, there is not a feeling that we are unduly fettered by having the word "imminent" in our legislation.
Our policy is to take action and move equipment when it is clear that a threat exists. That is one of the lessons of the "Braer". When we have taken action, for example, escorting the super tanker "Mimosa", with which the noble Lord is familiar, we have passed the test imposed even with the word "imminent" being present. We would not want to have causes for delay. I would certainly like to draw the matter to a conclusion.
I am reluctant to say that all these matters will be kept under review, but I can say this to the noble Lord. During the passage of time and with the experience
7 p.m.
Page 4, line 11, leave out ("imminent").
7.15 p.m.
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