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Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that very full expose of his case. I am sorry that we are not able to agree. I noted that some of the documents, the letters that have been written, may well go to the archivist at the request of the Registrar General, who will not be able to keep them under Clause 22. I noted too that the Minister said that the United Kingdom had to be tough on pollution. He forgot the last part of the phrase and that is, "and the causes of pollution".
I hope that nothing that I have said will encourage the Home Secretary, who does not need much encouragement in that respect, to misconstrue my arguments so that he thinks that I am not being tough on crime for electoral purposes in the weeks ahead. I just think that one must be realistic about such matters.
I do not wish to see a master being used as a shield by an unscrupulous owner to protect that owner from prosecution. I just do not believe that that situation is one which would justify the very large fine that can be imposed upon the master, because there is no certainty that the owner will indemnify the master. Is that unscrupulous boat owner going to fork out some £250,000 or some other very large fine? Again, I think that the Minister is not being entirely realistic.
As to the question of the precedents which have been established, if a case can be made for change, then change should be made and one should not dwell in the land of saying that it is an unprecedented situation. During our last debate on this matter I had the support of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale. I say as a lawyer that I believe that there is nothing to avoid that course being taken if a case for it is made out.
The Minister did not deal with the point I have made on a number of occasions in previous debates and today about the distinction between cases of very high profile, of international besides national significance. I do not know why he did not deal with that point, but he did not. In such instances and where the consequences of the negligent or deliberate action which led to prosecution are so serious, almost inevitably the prosecution would say that because of its seriousness, such a case would have to go for trial. As the Minister himself said, on conviction, the penalties available to the Crown Court are more draconian. Consequently, that is a much more realistic way of looking at the matter.
Your Lordships will be happy to know that I shall not seek to divide the House tonight. Indeed, we have had our victories this week and we must not overdo such things. Nevertheless, I know that I would carry all noble Lords with me, apart from the Minister and the Whip--
Baroness Trumpington: Noble Baroness!
Lord Clinton-Davis: I am sorry, my Lords; I should have referred to the noble Baroness. I still cannot get out of the practice that I followed in another place.
Having said that, I am sure that my honourable friends will want to return to the point and press it. I do not know what will happen to the Bill in the course of the next few weeks. Much, of course, depends on the timing of the election. But it is perhaps one of those issues about which the Minister will, perforce, have to think again. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
8 p.m.
Clause 12 [Preparation of plans under International Convention on Oil Pollution Preparedness, Response and Co-operation]:
Viscount Goschen moved Amendment No. 9:
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this amendment would improve the drafting of Clause 12. On Report, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, said that the phrase,
For good measure, and in keeping with the objective of the noble and learned Lord of keeping unnecessary words out of the statute book, the amendment would also delete a further three superfluous words; namely, the phrase "also in particular". I beg to move.
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Viscount and particularly to the draftsperson because, undoubtedly, this is one of those statutory phrases which has got into the draftsman's office computer, and anything that gets into that computer becomes like tablets of stone brought down from the holy mountain of the Medes and the Persians. Great openness of mind and flexibility has been shown in consenting to reconsider the matter.
I have written to the noble Viscount putting the matter on a rather broader basis because my conclusion on looking further was that in only one very remote circumstance were those words necessary in order to preserve the generality when a particular was mentioned. I certainly hope to have the views of the draftsperson on this in due course. In the meantime, I express my gratitude.
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I shall certainly be responding in due course to the point that the noble and learned Lord raised in correspondence. I am grateful for his kind words with regard to the change that we have proposed as a result of his earlier intervention.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Viscount Goschen moved Amendment No. 10:
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I spoke to this amendment when moving Amendment No. 3. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 30 [Short title, interpretation and commencement]:
Viscount Goschen moved Amendment No. 11:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 2 [Funding of maritime services]:
Viscount Goschen moved Amendment No. 12:
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, in moving the above amendment, it may be for the convenience of the House if I speak also to Amendments Nos. 13, 14 and 15. We have had considerable discussions on Schedule 2 resulting in extensive amendment to paragraphs 3 and 12 of Schedule 2. The amendments have clarified the circumstances where the operation of the General Lighthouse Fund might be changed and how those changes would operate. The general lighthouse authorities, represented by Trinity House, have written to the department to indicate that they are,
Amendment No. 12 makes it clear that the amounts within paragraph 3 relate only to costs which must be transferred out of the scope of the General Lighthouse Fund as a result of an international agreement. It cannot be used to transfer more than is strictly necessary to fund the transferred services. I have already given assurances to that effect in a response to a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, on Report.
Amendments Nos. 13 to 15 ensure that any collecting authority under the schedule has the power to seek information. Amendments at Report stage made provision at paragraph 9(2) and paragraph 13 of Schedule 2 for the GLAs to collect additional charges. These amendments to paragraph 7 will ensure that, for example, in the event of the GLAs collecting additional charges, they would be empowered to seek any necessary information.
I am very pleased that the amendments I have tabled today--if accepted by the House--together with the earlier amendments that I brought forward on Report, have allowed us to reach agreement with the GLAs on this important schedule. With those words, I beg to move.
Lord Greenway: My Lords, I can only express my thanks to the Minister for bringing forward these amendments. The noble Viscount has gone a long way towards allaying the fears that the GLAs had regarding certain parts of the Bill. The amendments that the Minister brought forward at the last stage of the Bill went a very long way towards allaying those fears. The fact that he is still bringing forward amendments at this late stage to tidy up those last little niggling fears is a matter of both delight and gratitude. I am most grateful to him.
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his kind remarks.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Viscount Goschen moved Amendments Nos. 13, 14 and 15:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Schedule 6 [Minor and consequential amendments]:
[Amendment No. 16 not moved.]
Page 14, line 19, leave out from beginning to ("include") in line 21 and insert ("An order under subsection (1) above in pursuance of paragraph (d) of that subsection may").
"without prejudice to the generality of"
was unnecessary. On further consideration, I now share that view. The amendment would, therefore, remove those superfluous words from the Bill.
Page 22, line 40, leave out ("section") and insert ("subsection").
Page 24, line 21, leave out ("and 27") and insert (" 27 and 29").
Page 28, line 37, leave out ("so incurred") and insert ("required to be so recovered").
"largely content with the GLF provisions of Schedule 2".
23 Jan 1997 : Column 879
However, the consideration of two additional minor points has been requested. We have agreed in discussion that further minor improvements are possible.
Page 30, line 13, leave out from ("provide") to ("with") in line 14 and insert ("any collecting authority").
Page 30, line 14, leave out ("he") and insert ("the collecting authority").
Page 30, line 16, after ("paragraph") insert--
(""collecting authority" means--
(a) the Secretary of State,
(b) a Departmental officer, and
(c) a general lighthouse authority;").
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