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Viscount Goschen: I beg to move the privilege amendment:
Lord Simon of Glaisdale: My Lords, during the course of the Bill I have objected to two small statutory phrases as being unnecessary. One has been conceded; the other is reference to "the consent of the Treasury". I hope that all your Lordships who are much younger than I will live to see that phrase disappear too. This privilege amendment really falls into the same class as being a drafting nonsense. What it says is quite untrue. It says--I summarise--that nothing in the Bill infringes the prerogative of financial privilege of the other place. There are, of course, frequent provisions in the Bill which do precisely that. We have just dealt with Schedule 2, about which my noble friend Lord Greenway spoke and about which my noble friend Lord Cooke was about to speak, which dealt very much with matters of finance. What is said in this amendment is quite untrue. However, this Bill is not peculiar in that respect because the privilege amendment is only moved in circumstances where what it states is untrue.
I do not expect the noble Viscount to withdraw the amendment on my ipse dixit but I raise the matter in the hope that the Procedure Committee will look to see whether there is not some more economical way of deferring to the privileges of the other place. There is, of course, a message procedure. During the course of this evening a number of messages have gone from the Clerks' Table to the other place. That would be a much more economical way than moving an amendment, printing it in Hansard, printing it in the Third Reading report, putting a black line against it, the other place then taking the amendment out and removing the black line. Is that not a waste of money? I do not ask the noble Viscount to withdraw the amendment. I ask your Lordships to recognise and take note of its absurdity.
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for not asking me to withdraw the amendment pending further consideration. I do not feel I am in a position at the moment to offer a comment on the noble and learned Lord's argument but merely to suggest that his "hit" rate has been alarmingly high during the course of the Bill.
On Question, amendment (privilege) agreed to.
8.12 p.m.
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill now pass. The Bill reinforces our longstanding commitment to the highest standards of maritime safety and vigilance to prevent the pollution of our waters and coast and to increase the safety of life at sea.
As the House is aware, the Bill has presented an opportunity to put in place a number of important measures which reduce the risk of pollution. It implements those recommendations in the report of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, entitled Safer Ships, Cleaner Seas which required legislative change.
We have also taken the opportunity to make a number of other significant changes to merchant shipping legislation. We are taking power to implement a number of international agreements. The Bill also provides the necessary legal framework to implement the package of anti-pollution measures which I announced last year.One important element of the Bill is the provision in Schedule 2 to implement a user pays policy in the maritime sector. The user pays principle has widespread support but concerns have been expressed about the implications of such a policy if implemented in the UK alone. I wish to take this opportunity briefly to restate our assurances on that point. The Government accept that if user charges were introduced unilaterally this could have adverse implications for the competitiveness not only of UK ports and shipowners but also for our exporters and importers. We take these issues seriously as I stressed at Second Reading and at other stages. I assure the House that the Government would not introduce charges unilaterally without first carrying out a full evaluation of compliance costs for business and of adverse effects on competitiveness. Our preferred approach remains to achieve international agreement, and we are making every effort to achieve that. It is my intention to consult with the industry on services which may be charged for in preparation for international discussions. The Government have said that they do not envisage charging for search and rescue services and I am happy to repeat that assurance now.
The Bill has attracted support from all sides in this House, and indeed outside from the shipping and ports industries, from environmental organisations, unions and others, which reflects a general desire to see these measures put into practice at the earliest opportunity. I am grateful for the support of those organisations and for their contributions to the consultation process.
I suggest that the Bill was an ideal candidate for the Moses Room procedure at Committee stage. A less formal procedure worked well for this uncontroversial Bill. I thank the Opposition in the form of the noble Lords, Lord Clinton-Davis, Lord Berkeley, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, for agreeing to that procedure, for welcoming the Bill and for their constructive and helpful interventions on a wide range of issues. The Bill is undoubtedly better for the changes made in Committee and during the subsequent stages. The level of agreement and co-operation from the Opposition Benches and from all sides of the House is appreciated by the Government.
One issue which caused considerable debate concerned the provisions relating to the General Lighthouse Fund in the event of an international agreement. At Second Reading I stated my regret that lack of consultation had caused unnecessary alarm for the general lighthouse authorities. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Greenway and Lord Cooke of Islandreagh, and indeed to my noble friend Lord Cochrane of Cults and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale, for elucidating their concerns and for their help in determining the satisfactory and agreed solution which we now have in the Bill.
I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, for his helpful interventions, particularly in the field of drafting and constitutional matters. I must also thank my noble friend Lord Caithness for his help and support during the passage of the Bill through your Lordships' House. I know that he is not able to attend the debate this evening but his knowledge and experience have proved invaluable in our debates. I reserve a special word of thanks for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, not only for his contribution to the passage of the Bill in this House, but also for the outstanding work which resulted in the publication of his report, Safer Ships, Cleaner Seas. I know that those sentiments are echoed on all sides of your Lordships' House.
I also wish to thank my team of officials who have worked long and hard on the implementation of the Donaldson recommendations and on the Bill from its inception. In bringing forward the Bill we have taken another significant step towards the implementation of the report's well-founded recommendations. Finally, as the Bill leaves your Lordships' House, I am sure the whole House will join me in hoping that it makes speedy progress in another place and reaches the statute book as soon as possible.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.--(Viscount Goschen.)
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I join in many of the comments the Minister made. This has been an important and a fascinating Bill. It is vitally important in terms of merchant shipping and the protection of life and the maritime environment. As the Minister rightly said, the House and on a wider sphere--nationally and internationally--all of us should be enormously indebted to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, and his committee, on whose recommendations this Bill is so largely based.
It has not been a politically contentious Bill although we have had interesting arguments about certain technical matters. Undoubtedly, the Minister is right in saying that the procedural experiment, as it were--although it was not quite an experiment, it was as regards transport issues--of considering the matter in Committee in the Moses Room was interesting. Of course the Bill was not changed there, but I think the deliberations we had there caused the Minister to introduce some important amendments. While we may have disagreed about some of the solutions to the problems raised, virtually all the issues identified common concern. There was no division between us as to the objectives of the Bill. However, one thing is clear: we shall no doubt go on learning from experience. We must not be complacent. There must be an ability to keep the situation under close review and to introduce changes wherever the necessity for a change is established.
I believe that the scrutiny of the Bill in this House has been useful. It has been impressive. In another place other issues may well arise. I gather that an amendment may be introduced by one of my honourable friends from the Back Benches enabling an injured person or those representing the interests of a deceased person to call for a public inquiry. That follows the case of the
"Marchioness". Perhaps I should have deployed that issue in this Chamber; I would not have pursued it to a Division. However, it is a matter that will no doubt come before the Minister.The Bill has attracted widespread interest on both sides of the shipping industry and from environmental concerns. The Minister has behaved almost impeccably. He would have behaved impeccably if he had accepted Amendment No. 8. However, before and during our debates he showed himself to be flexible. He introduced amendments where he was convinced that the Bill would be improved. We owe him a great debt of appreciation. I have said that before. I have been very impressed indeed--I have quite a lot of experience in this field--by the way that the noble Viscount has handled the Bill. I would not have said that had he been standing for election--it might have been quoted!
Apart from thanking the Minister, I wish, too, to thank a number of people who have given me and my noble friend Lord Berkeley a great deal of assistance. It is invidious to name people, but I shall do so because they deserve special mention. Mr. Adrian Hughes of the Advisory Committee on Protection of the Sea gave us valuable legal help. Mr. Edmund Brookes of the Chamber of Shipping, Mr. Graham Hicks of NUMAST, Daniel Owen and Mary Painter of the RSPB, and Gordon Johnson of the United Kingdom Major Ports Group were all readily available to help us; and there is the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, whom I thank for his constructive assistance. They were able to attend meetings with us and to give us the benefit of their expert opinions. That was invaluable in the course of our debates.
In particular, I wish to thank my noble friend Lord Berkeley who has performed with exceptional ability in the short time that he has taken on the role of assisting me in transport affairs. He performed extremely well on this occasion. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, also gave me the benefit of his help and support, which, I fear, came to nothing in respect of my amendment that we debated today. But I thank him, too. The noble and learned Lord was able to gain useful concessions as well. The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, always takes an interest in these matters and long may he continue to do so. I am sure that I have left out certain people. However, before I conclude it would be remiss of me indeed if I were to forget the research office of the Opposition, and Mr. Robert McGeachy in particular, who worked incredibly hard in the course of the Bill.
I look forward to the Bill being enacted as rapidly as possible. It is a good Bill. It is a Bill which enables Britain to exercise, I believe, an important influence in the counsels of world shipping. We are doing something practical to implement the promises on the part of those operating in the counsels of world shipping. That, I believe, is very important.
I join with the Minister in everything he said. I hope that the Bill will receive a speedy passage in another place.
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