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Lord Richard: My Lords, is the Minister saying that the £150 million worth of computers that have been bought apparently for the National Health Service have the millennium bug and will have to be treated?

Earl Howe: My Lords, I shall have to see to which system the noble Lord refers. I shall write to him if something I have said is incorrect. I understand that there is no risk to the National Health Service from any system that it has recently purchased.

Baroness O'Cathain: My Lords, will the Minister ensure that the experience gained by the public sector and by large private companies is of some assistance to the smaller companies? It is in everyone's interest that every company which has software is free of this millennium bug by the millennium. I fear that there will be areas of the country to which that will not apply because not enough constructive help has been given to those companies through various channels.

Earl Howe: My Lords, my noble friend raises an important point. The Government have established TaskForce 2000. My honourable friend the Minister for Science and Technology is involving the private sector to raise awareness and to identify solutions. The key aim of the task force is to ensure 100 per cent. awareness and commitment from main board members in industry and commerce, and that the target should be reached no later than March 1997.

Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, the Minister appears to indicate in his Answer that the Government are satisfied with the performance of the computers which have been purchased by units of the National Health Service. Will the Minister take time to read the report of the Audit Commission on some of the scandals as regards computers that were purchased which totally fail the health service?

Earl Howe: My Lords, I am not sure that that specific problem relates to the Question on the Order Paper, which is concerned with a quite narrow, albeit important, difficulty which many computers are likely to experience if nothing is done.

The problem has been addressed. We are ensuring that there is widespread awareness and that the problem will be solved. The point that the noble Lord raises is significant and I shall of course look at it.

The Earl of Northesk: My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister confirm that so far as the millennium time bomb is concerned, it is a matter of the hardware rather than the software; and that in that sense £150 million spent on computers (hardware) need not necessarily be a waste of money?

Earl Howe: My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point. While for many computers it is

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primarily a software problem within applications programmes and so on, there are some hardware systems that are not millennium compliant. The obvious examples are: process control systems; access control systems; air-conditioning systems; lift control systems; and even traffic lights. Any system that runs with a clock inside it could be vulnerable.

Combined Cadet Force

3 p.m.

Lord Morris of Castle Morris asked Her Majesty's Government:

What plans they have to implement the Prime Minister's proposal to extend the Combined Cadet Force to all schools.

Earl Howe: My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister made clear last week, the Government wish strongly to encourage wider voluntary participation in all the cadet organisations, including the CCF. Membership of that force presently provides some 40,000 young people at 241 schools with the opportunity to develop such vital personal qualities as leadership, self-respect, teamwork, responsibility and good citizenship. We are considering ways of increasing the scope of the cadet forces as a whole, so as to allow even more young people the opportunity to enjoy the benefits of membership.

Lord Morris of Castle Morris: My Lords, I am most obliged to the noble Earl for that reply. However, will he explain to the House what skills, other than skill in killing people, would be given to those young people by the extended CCF which would not be equally given to them by such organisations as the Duke of Edinburgh's Award scheme, the Outdoor pursuits centre, the outward bound schemes or their local sports club?

Earl Howe: My Lords, the noble Lord shows an uncharacteristic ignorance of what cadet forces offer to young people. The weapons handling part of the syllabus is only a minor part of what they do. The reasons why we regard the budget on cadets as money well spent are: first, it is a good way of keeping defence in the public eye and promoting a knowledge of the Armed Forces among the public; secondly, it is a way of delivering useful training to young people within a service ethos; thirdly, it increases the level of interest in the Armed Forces among the young. All the evidence shows that the cadet movement succeeds admirably in those objectives.

Baroness Young: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that in his first reply he answered the supplementary question of the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Castle Morris, by setting out the qualities that cadet forces encourage in young people? Does he further agree that there is no contradiction at all in encouraging cadet forces and at the same time encouraging young people to take up the Duke of Edinburgh's Award, more

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sporting activities and all the other outdoor activities that are so valuable in the development of character and personality?

Earl Howe: My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend. I could not have put the case better myself. As she rightly indicates, cadets are encouraged to undertake adventurous activities, including expeditions, and to learn community skills such as first aid. Through the Duke of Edinburgh's Award scheme they can further their education in such subjects as the arts, engineering and computer studies. Cadet forces also offer a wide range of other academic and practical activities, many leading eventually to national vocational qualifications.

Lord Quirk: My Lords, is it not the case that membership of any of the cadet forces rapidly challenges the mathematically challenged, of whom we have far too many among our youngsters; and that anything that we can do which will encourage the demonstration of the practical utility of basic skills is to be encouraged?

Earl Howe: My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very valuable point. The activities encouraged by the cadet movement provide a practical outlet for academic skills acquired in the classroom. One thinks of mathematics, applied mechanics and even military history. Many of the outdoor activities encourage a respect for conserving the environment. There are many ways in which the noble Lord's question is extremely pertinent.

Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, is the Minister aware that, like me, John Major refused to become a cadet? He became a wolf cub. Does the noble Lord recognise that non-military bodies exist as well as the cadet organisations? For example, the Woodcraft Folk specialise in environmental matters and are an extremely valuable body. Is the Minister further aware that none of these bodies receives a cent in state support? Is it not right that these matters should be examined again on a much wider basis so that bodies established on a non-military basis can at least receive equal attention?

Earl Howe: My Lords, I suspect that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister spent rather a lot of his time playing cricket. However, that is another matter. The noble Lord makes a very important point about youth movements generally. The Government certainly encourage those movements. It is, however, equally important to recognise that the young have a particular interest in youth movements associated with the Armed Forces. There is merit in that interest being channelled, for example, into a safe and responsible attitude towards the use of firearms and into their being encouraged to see the Armed Forces as a force for good in the defence of this country.

Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, the other organisations need more cash. They need government money.

Earl Howe: My Lords, they may need more cash. Whether they will receive more government money is a

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matter upon which I should be interested to hear the views of the party opposite. Many voluntary organisations raise much of their money through their own efforts, as do many units within the cadet force movement. The sea cadets, in particular, raise at least half their funds through charitable and voluntary fund-raising.

Obscenity Bill [H.L.]

3.7 p.m.

Read a third time.

The Earl of Halsbury: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.

I thank all those who, by their support, allowed the Bill to reach this stage in time to be sent on its way to the other place and, it is to be hoped, beat the timetable before the next general election. I particularly thank those noble and learned Lords who helped me with its drafting in the first place and the extra-parliamentary organisation, CARE, perhaps better known to your Lordships as the Nationwide Festival of Light, which helped me with a great deal of the detail.

Moved, That the Bill do now pass.--(The Earl of Halsbury.)

On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

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