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Lord Holme of Cheltenham: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I urge upon her and her right honourable colleague the desirability of reading carefully the attitude survey which was commissioned, which shows clearly that if local people cannot reach an accommodation, which is of course by far the best option, easily the most popular option among the people of Northern Ireland, both Catholic and Protestant, is this decision-making independent commission. The Government should pay more attention to that than any other factor.
Baroness Denton of Wakefield: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Holme. We have not ignored that. We have taken it into consideration. I stress that the setting up of such a body needs primary legislation. We are talking about giving it powers of adjudication. It will have to come through Parliament. As my right honourable friend said in another place, it will be put through as a Bill not an order because it is necessary to have full discussions. I shall ensure that the views expressed in this House tonight are drawn to my colleague's attention. That is always the case, but I shall convey noble Lords' strong feelings to my colleagues.
The aim is to press ahead with the necessary legislation. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, that we do not even have at the back of our minds the thought of there being a Labour government after the election. But it would be unrealistic of us not to recognise that the election and the timescale that noble Lords identified will complicate the issue. We shall take every opportunity to implement the recommendations as soon as possible.
I assure noble Lords that the consultation will not duplicate the already extensive consultation that has taken place. It is right that I pay tribute--I am sure noble Lords join me in this--to the people who so nobly took on this task, and produced a report which we all have yet to read in detail. It is obviously a report of great value and quality.
Were we casually to say, "This is what we shall be doing tomorrow", that would not reflect the important, difficult and complex nature of the problem that we are tackling. The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, rightly pointed out that matters have gone on year after year. He asked why we think decommissioning will work. I say to him that it is better not to work to the lowest common denominator of pessimism but to try always to move forward.
The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, drew my attention to his views on the report. I thank him for the gentle way in which he expressed his criticism of something about which he obviously feels strongly. That was courteous of him. I stress that if the conciliation, mediation and educative role does not start this evening, it will certainly start tomorrow morning. The
consultation exercise will be precisely focused. To move decision-making to another source is a radical and far-reaching proposal.The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, and my noble friend Lady Park rightly drew attention to the fact that Sinn Fein is sending no messages which would encourage people to have trust in them. Any ceasefire which would allow them back to the table has to be genuine. Their current activities give no one any confidence in their aims.
The noble Lord drew attention to the situation at Drumcree 1, as it has become known, and Drumcree 2. I believe he will agree that the activities last year at Drumcree were unprecedented in Northern Ireland. Therefore criticism that it was not foreseen is hard to make, because no one had expected that to be part of Northern Ireland's future. Again, we continue to press on with discussions and dialogue in the hope that answers will be found.
The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, is worried about whether the Government are as firm as he would wish in rejecting those who propose violence as an answer. I assure him that no one could be firmer. My noble friend Lady Park drew attention to the fact that we have seen significant changes in the attitude of the Americans and the Irish Government to Sinn Fein during the past year. I believe that those changes are the result of experiences which we have seen in Northern Ireland for many years. They have learnt the hard way that this is not a problem that can be solved merely by the hand of friendship. That has been rejected. The Government are grateful to the American and Irish governments for their support in attacking violence in the Province.
I am sorry to say that the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, was pessimistic. In bringing forward the Bill, the Government are trying to ensure that they do not hold up the process of finding a solution. I assure him that no one is suggesting that murderers should go free. With many offences now, no weapon is identified, but the convictions go through. There is no amnesty for criminals. There is a need--the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, identified this--to be practical if decommissioning is to work. I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Holme, recognised that in many instances the chiefs were following the Indians in the desire to reach a compromise through dialogue and discussion. I wish that "compromise" were not a dirty word in Northern Ireland. It is essential that we recognise that it must be part of the solution.
The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, commented on the stories which are currently going around the Province about advertising from the NIO. The NIO has rightly requested and received information from the public. The campaign requesting that the public share their knowledge in order that we can win the battle against violence has had a tremendous response. Perhaps one of the chinks of sunlight in recent weeks has been the need for Sinn Fein to reaffirm its threats to those who are involved in violence. That means that the community must be sending out strong signals not only to us but to Sinn Fein that its way is unacceptable.
I assure your Lordships that a comparison of the situation with that in Nazi Germany before the war has not been discussed by Ministers and I must express concerns. It is not a message which paints the true picture of Northern Ireland. The Government and the majority of people work towards a harmonious atmosphere and achieve that in many areas. Unfortunately, the minority has the high profile.
The discussions of that issue at national level were not helpful to those in my team who are working so hard to bring investment and growth to Northern Ireland. As Minister for Tourism, it was with great regret that I opened my national newspapers to read another negative story about Northern Ireland. Of course we have problems, no one denies that, and of course we have so much to do. However, we must not spread the message of fear. It is not something one feels immediately one steps off the plane, although the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, was right to draw attention to the real core of fear that exists among some communities. We must not venture to extremism, but promote moderation and working together.
The noble Lord, Lord Williams, suggested that the lack of progress in talks was due to some weakness--I suspect that he would have used the word "wetness"--on the part of my Government. Those who sit at the talks recognise that there have been constant attempts to make progress. The negotiations have been complex and difficult and I pay tribute to the patience of those involved. The framework exists for advancing the process and we do everything in our power to make it possible.
The noble Lord also asked why the Bill does not set out details of the decommissioning scheme. At this stage, it is not possible to finalise detailed arrangements. The parties to the talks also have an interest. We shall have to fine tune the arrangements to take account of the views of those who hold the weapons. However, the parties to the talks will be heavily involved in defining the parameters within which a scheme must operate, provided that the requirements of Clause 3 are met whereby a scheme must include one or more of the four listed ways of decommissioning; transfer, depositing for collection, provision of information and destruction by persons in unlawful possession. If verification is not believable, verification will not work.
The noble Lord wondered why there was a five-year time limit. It is considered to be practical. The Bill sets aside certain criminal offences because any scheme will be non-statutory. The five-year limitation allied with the need for annual renewal, by order, beyond one year is a way of ensuring parliamentary scrutiny, which is very important. That does not underestimate the lengthy path on which we have embarked. Furthermore, the five-year limit does not mean that we expect the process to last five years, nor does it mean that we intend it to last five years. We would like to see progress and we would like to see that issue dealt with.
The Bill provides for an amnesty from prosecution in respect of certain mainly possession-related offences for those acting in accordance with the decommissioning scheme. The amnesty will be available only to those
acting in accordance with the detailed arrangements specified in the decommissioning scheme. It is intended to protect those who commit offences through their participation in decommissioning.We are trying to build a path down which people can travel and on which we can make progress. The noble Lord rightly drew attention to all the legal aspects involved and I will write to him in detail. We, alongside the Irish Government, will need to consider carefully who should comprise the independent commissioners. It is absolutely key that we do so. However, the Irish Government were not consulted on the North Report. No doubt they will form their own conclusions and make them clear to us.
Your Lordships covered many points of concern. However, I can always be certain that we in your Lordships' House are working towards a common aim; that of ensuring that there is a peaceful future somewhere on the horizon for Northern Ireland. The Irish Government share our determination to attain agreement on the Bill, which deals with a most difficult and complex issue.
Agreement on decommissioning would transform the prospects for political progress and I believe that in due course it is achievable. The opportunity is there and it must be taken. In bringing the Bill to the House, I am endeavouring to give us the ability to achieve that. I ask your Lordships to give the Bill a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
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