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Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. That is why we have contributed £22 million to humanitarian mine clearance over the past five years. We shall maintain our position as one of the world's leading contributors to demining and shall contribute to the European Union support for humanitarian mine clearance. We have always said that mine lifting is one of the most valuable actions we can take and we are helped in that by the Royal Army Ordnance Corps. However, the marking of minefields needs the consent of those who laid the mines in the first place. I know from bitter experience in Angola that many layers of mines had no such maps or, if they had, they have been destroyed.

Lord Molloy: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that our Royal Engineers have given an exemplary example in mine laying? In the last war, every mine that we laid, when it was necessary, could be picked up with the greatest of ease by another group of Royal Engineers when taking over the plans. If the rest of the world had the same ability as our Royal Engineers, laid mines would not be a difficulty.

Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. One of the most heartening things that I am seeing these days is retired members of the British Armed Forces joining with groups such as the Halo Trust and the Mines Advisory Group to teach people in countries which are littered with anti-personnel mines how to lift them safely. We wish them well in that work. The Royal Army Ordnance Corps and other soldiers have also been involved in that work.

The Earl of Lauderdale: My Lords, can my noble friend tell the House which are the countries that seem to be resisting our policy in this matter?

Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, it is not yet clear. We do not have a complete rundown. However, we have had support in favour of the Conference on Disarmament considering anti-personnel

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mines from the United States, Canada, France, Italy, Japan and Australia. Some countries, probably among the non-aligned, are not yet ready to sign up, but our persuasion goes on.

Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, I apologise if I asked this Question some time ago, but has progress been made in devising new methods of detecting and destroying the mines, which at the present time is an enormously expensive and laborious business?

Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, there may have been, but I am not technically expert in these matters. There is good ability now among many local demining teams. However, the noble Lord is right. It is extremely time-consuming. It can take up to an hour to search thoroughly an area of a square metre. If one thinks of the many square miles that are littered with these mines, it will obviously take a very long while to carry out the clearance. Automatic mine clearance is fine in certain countries that have power and have the facilities to use very expensive equipment. But most clearance is carried out locally by small groups who are specially trained to detect very carefully.

Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that our Ghurka colleagues are especially skilful in mine clearance?

Baroness Chalker of Wallasey: My Lords, I am sure they are. They have been so skilful in every other task they have ever been asked to undertake that I have no doubt that they are skilful in mine clearance too. I have not met them on mine clearance operations but I have met many others. Most British soldiers know how to do it.

Bus Industry: Privatisation

2.51 p.m.

Lord Clinton-Davis asked Her Majesty's Government:

    Whether they are satisfied that privatisation of the bus industry has in overall terms been of benefit to the travelling public.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Viscount Goschen): My Lords, yes. The Government firmly believe that the travelling public and indeed the taxpayer have benefited substantially from the privatisation and deregulation of the bus industry. They have brought greater operating efficiency, introduced the benefits of competition and innovation in meeting passenger needs and given a reduction in the burden on the taxpayer of subsidising the industry.

Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that extraordinary reply. Is he unaware of the fact that a government-appointed committee has in the past few days reported lower service quality, vehicles that are too old, unreliable services, loss of ticket

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interchangeability, lack of information for the travelling public and fares higher in real terms than before deregulation? How does he square that criticism with his response?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, I do not believe that that is a fair summary of what the report says. We believe that it is a useful contribution to the debate on bus deregulation and on transport generally. What the noble Lord also failed to mention is that bus mileage has increased by around 25 per cent. outside London, bus operating costs per vehicle mile have decreased and there has been a total decrease of 58 per cent. since 1985 in terms of the subsidy to the bus industry. Deregulation and privatisation have worked. We do not say that there are no problems with the operators disseminating information, and so forth, and we are keen to work with the industry to help improve that.

Lord Berkeley: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the report from which he has just quoted states that the number of bus passenger journeys has fallen over the past 10 years by 29 per cent.? The report makes eight recommendations on how to improve ticketing and the cost of journeys as between road and rail. Do the Government have any plans to implement what is in the report?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, the report has only recently been published. We shall certainly be looking at it very carefully. We think it is a contribution to the debate on the issue. The fact is that bus usage in terms of patronage of the buses has been declining certainly since the 1960s and possibly since before then. But we have seen a levelling off of that decline. As I said, we have seen a healthy increase in bus mileage driven as well as the innovative type of services--for instance, using small buses--that were not in existence before deregulation.

Lord Borrie: My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the purposes of the privatisation of the industry was to increase competition; that the competition authorities have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to deal with takeover bids and other anti-competitive and predatory activities by bus companies; and that the Government have failed to implement the promises made as far back as 1989 to increase the investigative powers of the Office of Fair Trading and the sanctions available against anti-competitive practices and to enhance competition policy in this country?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, competition is of key importance to the bus industry. Since deregulation and privatisation, we have seen an increase in competition, with all the benefits that has brought to passengers. I certainly have not heard any calls to renationalise the bus industry or indeed to reregulate it. But perhaps the Opposition can put me right if that is not the case.

As the noble Lord correctly said, the Government intend to bring forward legislation as soon as parliamentary time permits. Meanwhile, the Office of

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Fair Trading booklet, Restrictive Fair Trade Practices in the Bus Industry, explains the present need and procedures for registering agreements between parties. This is certainly an important area.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware of the great problem of the non-availability of tickets across different companies, so that one cannot go in with one company and out with another? The problem is having a severe effect on the use of buses in other than urban areas. Can he confirm that the perceived cost of bus transport outside urban areas puts local authorities which are attempting to reduce the amount of travel by private motor car at a severe disadvantage?

Viscount Goschen: My Lords, the bus industry is key to the achievement of that aim. The noble Baroness may be interested to hear that 85 per cent. of services are currently run on a commercial basis. Subsidy is given to routes that are not run on a commercial basis. The question of ticketing and the co-operation, or otherwise, between bus companies are central issues and are ones which I understand the report considers. We shall want to respond in fuller detail to the report when we have had more opportunity to consider its recommendations.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, on the one hand the Minister acknowledges that bus "ridership" has declined dramatically and on the other hand boasts an increase in the number of bus miles run. Does that not indicate at the very least commercial incompetence, and surely, much more: a decline in the quality of service?

Viscount Goschen: No, my Lords, I do not agree. I do not agree that there is any contradiction in what I said. It is important that more bus mileage is run. The innovative services that have come forward have been a factor in the reduction of the rate of decline of bus usage, which, as I am sure the noble Lord will admit, has tailed off over the past year or two.


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