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Lord Gisborough: My Lords, you can be dangerous with anything. The only safe object to allow people is a wooden spoon--and that must not be too long because it could go down someone's throat. You can make
anything dangerous. You cannot argue that you have to do away with every type of gun, knife or anything else because it is dangerous if used the wrong way. It has been suggested that a hand rail should be put around the British Isles to ensure that nobody falls off. That is what we are trying to do here.3.45 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I have had to do some strange things but I have not yet had to defend putting a handrail around the British Isles.
The noble Earl raised this matter in Committee. I explained that Section 11(2) of the Firearms Act 1968 allows the starter of an athletics race to have a pistol in his possession without a police firearms certificate in order to start the race. Under the Act a person who wishes to buy or own a pistol for that purpose or to keep at home requires a firearms certificate in the usual way.
Clause 4 of the Bill ensures that athletics starters can continue to keep and use starting pistols in that way. Starters use blank rounds, but I understand that it is important to have a working pistol so that there is both a report and a flash. Every major championship, including the last three Olympic Games and the last Commonwealth Games, has made use of starting guns. The only major exception of recent years was the 1995 World Championships in Gothenburg where an alternative starting apparatus was used. There were, I understand, difficulties in the sprint events when the apparatus proved unreliable. Anyone who takes sport seriously will know that if the starting gun is unreliable it creates enormous problems for the competitors, particularly at that level.
We are discussing the issue with the British Athletics Federation. I recall the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, saying that it cannot be beyond the wit of man to devise another method. We are talking with the BAF about that and the federation itself is addressing the issue. It is considering alternatives to pistols for starting races. If an alternative practical method can be found we will reconsider the position.
The Government are not aware of any case where the concession in the law for starting pistols has caused danger to the public. I hope that the noble Earl will not press the amendment.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. I welcome too the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Gisborough. The Minister is obviously content with the clause and I do not wish to weary the House. I hope that there are no serious incidents this summer. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 7 [Shot pistols used for shooting vermin]:
Baroness Blatch moved Amendments Nos. 9 to 11:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 8 [Having small-calibre pistol outside premises of licensed pistol club]:
Lord Pearson of Rannoch moved Amendment No. 12:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 12 I shall speak also to Amendment No. 14 and touch on Amendment No. 15, in the name of my noble friend Lord Swansea, which is an amendment to my amendment. I shall speak mainly to Amendment No. 14, the disassembly or segregation amendment.
Amendment No. 14 is very similar to the amendment which I and other noble Lords supported in Committee on 16th January, at cols. 327 to 337 of the Official Report. We have made two changes to the amendment since the Committee proceedings. First, we have limited its scope to pistols chambered to .22 or smaller rimfire cartridges. That is in response to fears voiced by my noble friend the Minister, at col. 338, that our original amendment would have led to calls to allow high calibre pistols also to be disassembled. My noble friend was not necessarily correct in that assumption but the new wording should meet her fears.
As an amendment to the amendment, my noble friend Lord Swansea proposes Amendment No. 15 which would extend the calibres covered by disassembly to .32 wadcutters as well as to .22. The object of that exercise is to include calibres used in the Commonwealth Games and the Olympic Games in the disassembly amendment.
The second change made to our earlier amendment allows the Secretary of State discretion to specify another component part, instead of or in addition to the slide assembly or cylinder, which will be kept in the licensed premises. This is to meet the practical requirements of disassembly of the very few makes of pistols not covered by the other arrangements. It is a refinement which meets the fears my noble friend the Minister expressed on 16th January.
Your Lordships would not wish me to repeat all the arguments used in Committee in favour of disassembly. We showed how the Government, in the face of overwhelming evidence, had shifted from their original stance, which was that disassembly was not practical, to the equally unreal spectre of illicit spares being kept at the homes of law-abiding citizens in flagrant contradiction of the conditions set out in their firearm certificates. So far, the Government have not attempted to dispute the fact that it is far easier for what they call a "determined and motivated individual"--presumably one bent on criminal activity--to acquire a whole pistol in the underworld than it is for him to go through the unnecessary procedure of acquiring a spare part which might not even fit his weapon.
In her speech resisting our amendment in Committee, my noble friend the Minister said that she was worried that regular dismantlement might impair the accuracy of many .22s. I can assure your Lordships that the weight of expert evidence, as supplied, for example, by Mr. Colin Greenwood of the Firearms Research
Be that as it may, if for any reason owners do not want to disassemble their pistols or cannot do so, they will not be able to benefit from this amendment. They will have to keep them as whole weapons in accordance with the rest of the Bill. So my noble friend's remarks on that occasion display her usual and admirable concern, but they are not a relevant objection to this amendment, especially in its redrafted form.
In her remarks on 16th January my noble friend the Minister went on to raise the objection that it would be difficult to police a dismantlement system in clubs. She gave three examples of such difficulty: first, that a qualified armourer would need to check the bona fides of a component part at the time of storage and would need to know what components the owner was entitled to have. However, there is no greater difficulty in identifying a bona fide component part than a whole gun. The extent of ownership will also be known as it will be declared on a firearm certificate.
It may be that an additional but unnecessary safeguard in this respect could be added to the Bill on Third Reading. This could be to require both the frame and its spare parts to bear the weapon's number. I gather that that is usually what happens anyway, but it might give the Government extra comfort if it were to be made mandatory. Perhaps the Government would care to come back with a suitable amendment on Third Reading or, alternatively, I would be happy to do so. Anyway, I hope that we can discuss it.
My noble friend's second fear about policing dismantlement in clubs was that an owner could deceive a club official at the time of storage by depositing a deactivated component part instead of a working part of the same make and model. But that is based on a highly contentious idea that deactivated weapons are not easily identified. In fact, deactivated weapons undergo a stringent process in order to render them incapable of firing a bullet. All component parts are deactivated, for instance, by cutting away two-thirds of the slide rail and all require a distinctive proof mark issued by the Birmingham or London proof houses. I have photographs which illustrate these points. Anyone used to handling guns will easily be able to spot the difference.
My noble friend's third objection was that there would have to be a considerable bureaucracy in managing the system inside clubs. But it is not clear why a dismantlement system should be any more bureaucratic than the system envisaged under the Bill. Depositing component parts will work in exactly the same way as depositing whole guns. The Bill already requires a club to keep a pistol register which would record details of the pistols stored at the club, its owner and any removal from the premises. The same details would be required of component parts.
My noble friend raised one more defence of her position against the disabling amendment during our Committee proceedings. In mentioning it I have to say that, with the obvious inadequacies of all their
I trust it is now clear that none of the Government's objections to dismantlement stand up to scrutiny. Before concluding, perhaps I could be permitted a very brief comment on Amendment No. 13 which follows this group of amendments on the Marshalled List. Amendment No. 14 would create a right under the Bill and there would be no offence if its conditions were complied with. Under Amendment No. 13 the rules, when they emerge from the Secretary of State, might be delayed or be so stringent as to negate the effect of the proposal.
Amendment No. 14 is less bureaucratic. It provides for the generality and leaves the Secretary of State a residual power in case of difficulty. If he does nothing, the clause would still operate, but Amendment No. 13 would require the rules to be made and they could be very complex, including perhaps storage in more than two parts. If Amendment No. 14 were not to find favour with my noble friend on the Front Bench or eventually with your Lordships, of course I would support Amendment No. 13. However, I fear that it is not as helpful as Amendment No. 14.
Disassembled pistols all over the country will be far safer than arsenals of weapons waiting to be burgled. That is where the "determined and motivated individual" so promoted by Her Majesty's Government will strike, not in Alice in Wonderland procurement of unreliable and non-existent spare parts in the underworld.
Disassembly will allow thousands of clubs to continue to operate. It will save their sport for thousands of people, both able-bodied and disabled, and it will save the taxpayer a huge but unquantifiable sum. It was the preferred option of Lord Cullen and it meets the central purpose of the Bill, which is to separate the owner from his pistol except within licensed premises and thus to do what can be done to prevent another terrible tragedy such as occurred at Dunblane. I very
Earl Attlee: My Lords, we have two very similar amendments on the Marshalled List. They are both designed to have largely the same effect. I am anxious to avoid two debates so I shall speak in this debate. If necessary, I shall move my amendment, speak to it, explain its advantages and then seek the opinion of the House.
The time has now come for the House to decide what we are going to do with the Bill which, as drafted, will practically eliminate the sporting use of pistols while providing a negligible increase in public safety. The other problem with the Bill is that it is unaffordable as not only will compensation have to be paid for the actual guns to be melted down, but also--and quite rightly--compensation will have to be paid to the clubs that will be destroyed and to certain individuals who would otherwise be bankrupted.
We believe that a system of disassembly, dismantling, segregation--call it what you will--provides the solution. Both our amendments--that is my Amendment No. 13 and the noble Lord's Amendment No. 14--concern only small calibre, that is to say, .22 pistols, although the case that will be presented is equally valid for full bore pistols.
In Committee the Chamber has already shown that it can compromise on this Bill. The Committee divided at least twice and decided upon compensation for clubs but not businesses. It may be helpful if I first remind the House of the problems connected with handguns. I suggest that there are four problems. First, although there is little concrete evidence, the police fear that people are acquiring handguns as a means of personal protection. Rightly or wrongly, that is contrary to public policy. With certain exceptions the public are not supposed to use firearms to protect themselves as that is the province of the police. With good reason the police are apprehensive of further increases in the number of people having their own guns available for immediate use but having some lawful pretext to obtain them such as target shooting.
Secondly, to obtain a licence people will join a shooting club, which is, after all, a pleasant activity. After a period they will qualify for their own certificate. Their motivation is not immediately apparent, especially if they occasionally turn up at the club. That is not unlikely as the clubs have a pleasant social environment. The only problem is that their motivation is contrary to public policy but nothing illegal is happening.
Thirdly, there is the problem of theft of legally held handguns. While there is a vast number of guns with no history of legal ownership, there is a tiny minority which were stolen from legal owners. Having a sporting gun of any kind creates some increased security risk, but perversely the very qualities of a pistol--concealability and transportability--which make it attractive to further criminal acts also contribute to its security.
Fourthly, there is the problem of suicides and accidental or even deliberate shootings either by the owner, a relative or a friend. The system of disassembly that we shall describe can overcome all these problems, as nowhere will there be a complete privately owned pistol except when in use at a club and for certain exemptions specified elsewhere in the Bill. The Bill, as drafted, seeks to solve the problem in a different way to that specified in our amendment. No handguns will be privately held but .22 pistols will be held in a few arsenal type clubs, with possibly several hundred complete guns in one place. The Government have admitted that few, if any, clubs will be able to afford the necessary security arrangements, thus causing there to be fewer clubs but with a huge concentration of firearms, making them even more attractive to criminals.
At this stage I wish to explain how our amendment works and how it meets the difficulties identified with previous amendments debated in this House and in another place. The amendment gives the power to the Secretary of State to make rules as to which parts of a small calibre pistol, that is, a .22, will be left at the club and which parts will be stored elsewhere. It is an extremely flexible provision. My provisions are almost identical in effect to those in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. Under my amendment the Secretary of State would be able to provide that a particular model or type is not suitable for dismantling and that provision is not qualified in any way, as the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, explained. This is practically the only way in which my amendment differs from that of the noble Lord.
I can and will support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. He has made an excellent job of moving it. However, I doubt whether the House will accept it, if he chooses to test the opinion of the House. If the House does not accept the noble Lord's amendment, I shall move my amendment and briefly explain its advantages. I shall then seek the opinion of the House.
Page 3, line 28, after ("have") insert ("the shot pistol").
Page 3, line 29, leave out ("a shot pistol") and insert ("it").
Transpose Clause 7 to after Clause 3.
Page 3, line 38, at end insert ("unless the pistol complies with subsection (2A) below.").
"The main reason for rejecting this option"--
that is, disassembly--
"was that we do not believe that any form of disassembly would provide a guaranteed measure of assurance against the possible misuse of the pistol by a determined and motivated individual".--[Official Report, 16/1/97; col. 338.]
There is no supporting evidence to back up this opinion, other than the self-evident point that no measure of any kind can be an absolute guarantee against possible misuse. All the Government's objections are met once it is recognised that at the commencement of the Act all pistols will be subject to assessment by the police. A complete inventory of pistols and component parts exists today on firearm certificates. All pistols not conforming to the Act will have to be surrendered and removed from the certificate. Exactly the same applies to component parts. Thereafter, all that is required is for the police to notify the club of any changes in the member's certificate.
4 p.m.
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