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Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, I, too, regret that I have been unable to attend previous stages of the Bill. However, I wish to say a few words on the two amendments. I support them as a result of practical experience in Northern Ireland.
In Northern Ireland we have just as many weapons throughout the community. Over the past years the security forces have had many weapons of the type referred to in the provision, and of the type required by terrorists. However, those weapons have to be dismantled within the home and disassembled. Because the parts are separated there has been no case, so far as I am aware, of a planned attack to obtain a partly disassembled weapon without knowledge of where the second part was hidden. If these amendments are passed, one part would be held in a safe place well away from the location of the disassembled part. However, there have been occasions over the years when weapons were taken from a central place in a fully assembled state. I therefore support the amendments. I believe that they would give the greatest feeling of protection to a well-informed public. If they are not well informed they will be sceptical of such a measure.
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, at Second Reading I drew my noble friend's attention to the view of the small clubs in the area where I live which will have to close because they have no premises in which to keep their weapons. My noble friend's amendment would very much improve the situation for those clubs. Members would be able to keep their weapons at home but absolutely safely because parts would be disassembled and kept elsewhere. That would help shooters enormously. Under my noble friend's amendment any weapons would still be small bore but could be kept at home. I believe such a measure to be absolutely safe. I have in mind the anxieties of many people in the area where I live. This is a good solution. I am comforted by the fact that it is Lord Cullen's preferred option.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, there are two voices from this side of the House. My noble friend gave his powerful opinion; mine is very much less powerful, indeed a very weak opinion so far as numbers are concerned. Nevertheless, I believe that it should be expressed. I have heard the arguments; I am impressed by them. I do not need to rehearse them further. My point is that if the amendment tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, were passed, it would help to take some of the heat out of the severe arguments that are taking place. If the Government accepted the amendment, it would make pistol shooters feel that their views were being heeded and that the Government now recognise that they are not the monsters so often depicted but perfectly respectable, hard-working members of the community, innocent of any crime that would justify the draconian measures now being taken against them. That is worth repeating several times over, although that is not my intention.
It has been shown beyond doubt that dismantlement is workable. We have heard the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough. If anybody should know, he should. He knows that dismantlement is workable and that it is safe when coupled with proper enforcement of the law. We must always remember that it was failure to enforce the existing law which led to Thomas Hamilton
possessing guns. Dismantlement would provide a regime that was safe; and the Bill would still provide the most rigorous gun control regime in the world.I want to emphasise the savings in cost that would arise if dismantlement were to be agreed. I put it to my noble friends in particular, since it is likely that a Labour government will pick up the tab for compensation and that the amount could turn out much higher than presently estimated, that it is in their interests to support the amendment. Indeed if the Government had any sense, they would welcome it with open arms. It would get them off the hook. I do not want to be unkind to them; I am not an unkind person. However, I fear that they have the closed minds and moribund senses that afflict those who are too long in office.
Nevertheless, I have a dream that a glimmering of understanding of the issues and consideration for those who will be so badly affected by the Bill will penetrate the fog of confusion that surrounds Her Majesty's Government and that they will see the light and accept the amendment. If not, I trust that this House, as it so often does, will pass an amendment which brings justice to pistol shooters and those connected with the sport and, in doing so, enhance public safety.
Lord Hooson: My Lords, the crucial issue in the Bill is framed in these two amendments. In his report Lord Cullen undoubtedly gave as his first option the dismantling of guns. In their response the Government said that they had received advice from forensic science advisers to the Home Office that that option was totally impracticable. That is the great issue in relation to the two amendments.
If such a measure is impracticable from a safety point of view, then the Government are right. On the other hand, there are the expert comments in so many letters received by Members of this House regarding the option which Lord Cullen believed to be a practical answer to the problem--or at least the most satisfactory answer. Having pointed out how totally impossible it was to prevent the madman or evil-doer getting through the net, he chose the other option; namely, dealing with the weapon. That, he believed, was the correct way to deal with the problem. However, as I understand it, he had not heard the evidence from the forensic science advisers to the Government. It is very important for the Minister to deal with the disadvantages and adumbrate exactly what they are.
This is a matter which eventually the elected House should and will decide. The issue for this House is whether we give Members in the other place an opportunity and a reason to reconsider Lord Cullen's advice and that received by the Government from forensic science advisers whom they are bound to turn to. If the advice is as strong as has been suggested, it cannot easily be discarded.
Lord Marlesford: My Lords, when the Government proposed the Bill they reached some general conclusions which noble Lords may feel were rather expensive. Some may agree; some may disagree. The amendments under discussion, particularly the proposal of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, do not seek to counter those general
conclusions. All they say is: let the policies that the Government have decided to adopt be implemented in a way that is less expensive, which must be desirable for everyone, and in a way that is less intrusive and burdensome. It would be very sad if my noble friend were to say not only that the Government will insist on their general principles as set out in the Bill but that they will also insist on the Home Office having its own way as to exactly how the legislation is carried out. Frankly, I suspect that the collective knowledge and expertise in your Lordships' House is every bit as great as in the Home Office.4.30 p.m.
Earl Russell: My Lords, I should like to ask a question, the answer to which may materially assist me in deciding how to vote. My general questions are very much like those of my noble friend Lord Hooson.
Once a weapon has been disassembled, is it possible to take a disassembled piece from one weapon and fit it together with the body of another weapon to make one composite new weapon or do the disassembled pieces have to be fitted together in the original combination?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 12 and 14 in the name of my noble friend Lord Pearson of Rannoch propose that pistols and other handguns would be disassembled for storage. The owner would retain the larger part of the gun--the carcass or frame--to keep safely at home and leave a vital working part, most usually the barrel in the case of a pistol, or the cylinder in the case of a revolver, for secure storage at their club.
The Government have given much consideration to this issue and I am particularly grateful to my noble friend for coming to see me recently, together with an independent expert, to offer advice on this subject.
We, of course, understand the importance of disassembly, certainly as far as individual shooters are concerned. However, the Government remain of the view that, as we said when this issue was debated before in this House, it would be wrong to take this approach. The Government have in this House and in another place explained the dangers to the public of allowing handguns to be held at home, even when disassembled.
This is not a technical argument. Experts may differ on this subject but the Government entirely accept that most handguns can be disassembled by removing the barrel, slide or cylinder and that the average owner can then put them back together so that they are safe to use.
A few guns, as Lord Cullen acknowledged at paragraph 9.86 of his report, cannot be treated in this way. But the Government's main argument against disassembly is that it does not provide a sufficient measure of assurance to the public against the possible misuse of a pistol by a determined individual.
Under a disassembly scheme it would have to be the responsibility of the club to ensure that the detached component parts were lodged safely and securely and that they were always handed in when they ought to be.
I would expect that clubs would strive to meet their responsibilities under these new arrangements, and that would have to be reflected in the terms of their licence. But, if they were not acting responsibly, it might be difficult for the police to detect that until something went seriously wrong, by which time it could be too late.
Another difficulty is the fact that detachable component parts such as pistol barrels and slides and revolver cylinders are small and easily concealable. There would inevitably be scope for an owner who had a mind to do so to remove one illicitly. He might or might not attempt to substitute a lookalike instead; if he did, he might or might not succeed in doing that.
Some owners will of course have more than one component part for their pistol; or it would be possible for others, intent on doing so, to adapt a component part taken from a deactivated gun so as to deceive their club, however briefly, into believing that it was the genuine component of the original gun.
Any scheme of this sort would open up a range of possibilities for abuse by somebody who was minded--and one might say even wicked enough--to do so. The Government have taken advice from the Association of Chief Police Officers in England and Wales. Its letter concludes that,
- "disassembly is thought to be incapable of being policed".
The Government have always accepted that the majority of firearm certificate holders are honest and law abiding; but we must not forget that Thomas Hamilton and Michael Ryan both held their guns lawfully on certificate. Either could have been capable of obtaining or concealing component parts had the disassembly approach been in force.
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