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Lord Gisborough: My Lords, my noble friend is talking about people who cheat. People who want to obtain pistols by cheating can perfectly well obtain them by going into Glasgow or London. Surely we are here talking about genuine firearms people who wish to keep their firearms certificates and have no intention of cheating.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, in a way my noble friend almost makes the case. There are many different views about this matter. The Government simply stand on their case that not disassembling but having the gun and the moving parts in one place reduces the risk of the whole variety of ways of circumvention that I have referred to.
A number of points were raised during the course of this important but relatively short debate. The first was the risk of burglary. Clubs with large supplies of gun parts could still be targeted by criminals and one cannot rule out the possibility that the underworld would be interested in or attracted by such supplies.
The key argument used here for disassembly is that one can thereby reduce the level of security at a gun club which would enable it to survive after this Bill is on the statute book. But it is inconceivable that one could have very large quantities of moving parts of guns held in the community that would not be attractive to burglars, just as supplies in any commercial venture would be attractive to burglars, wherever there is a market.
As to security at the clubs, there would still be the need to have a sophisticated method of keeping component parts of handguns safely stored. Clubs would also need to be extremely vigilant about an individual--just one individual--bent on removing a small component part which would allow reassembly of the gun at home.
Lord Clifford of Chudleigh: My Lords, perhaps I may reiterate a small point which I have already mentioned. So many guns come into this country every week. Most people who read the newspapers will know that a trial is taking place at present of a road rage case where the man concerned telephoned for a gun, obtained a gun within an hour and shot the people who had bumped the back of his car. There is no point in talking about disassembly and putting guns into firearms clubs when there are those 2,000 illegal weapons. It is far better to have things segregated than to have a position whereby a terrorist or a bandit could go into a gun club and take a weapon as one piece.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, we shall have to agree to differ on this point. The noble Lord makes an important point about the number of illegal weapons in this country. We do not know how many there are; it can be at best a guess. However many there are, it is our view that, if guns are taken out of circulation--it is the Government's proposal that the whole of the gun, parts and all, should be taken out of circulation--those guns that are in circulation become much more conspicuous, which makes it easier for the police to identify illegal weapons in the community. That is a point either agreed or not agreed between us, but it is a point which the Government have taken seriously.
The noble Lord, Lord Hooson, raised an important matter. The degree to which disassembly is a practical proposition is a matter that was raised by Lord Cullen. He was equivocal on this. I do not deny the point made by noble friend Lady Carnegy that Lord Cullen said that that would be a preferable option, but he went on to say, "if it is a workable proposition".
In paragraph 9.111 of his report Lord Cullen said that it must be a matter for Parliament to decide what the ultimate solution should be. In his recommendation 24 he specifically invited the Government to consider the practicability of disassembly as an option. We have given thought to that and we have considered the practicability of it as an option. Not all noble Lords will agree with the Government's conclusion to that consideration, but we considered that it was not a practical proposition and rejected it.
I am sorry that my noble friend Lord Peyton spoke as he did. The Government have given a good deal of thought to the issue, as they were invited to do by Lord Cullen. As the Minister responsible for this Bill, I continue to discuss the passage of each stage of the Bill; I have continued to listen to noble Lords; I have dealt with all the correspondence and made most of the correspondence available to all other noble Lords; I continue to play devil's advocate with many of the points raised during the debate; and in addition I personally sought expert advice from a person nominated by my noble friend Lord Pearson--it was his choice--and found that meeting most
valuable on this point. I return to the point that we did what Lord Cullen asked us to do--that is, give serious consideration to these matters--and we came to the conclusion that is well known to noble Lords.Perhaps I may turn to Amendment No. 13 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. The arguments in principle against disassembly are the same. The noble Earl suggests that his amendment would be better and more effective. But it would require complicated rules about which guns could or could not be dismantled. It would also be a recipe for confusion and misunderstanding. The task of those such as the police who would have to distinguish between those guns which could be disassembled under the rules and those which could not, would be even more difficult. I refer again to the views of the Association of Chief Police Officers: disassembly is incapable of being policed.
The version of the noble Earl in relation to disassembly would make policing of the system impossible, with different rules applying to different makes or models. I cannot see how that offers a practical way forward.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, my amendment is designed to provide maximum flexibility for the Secretary of State, who will, in a few months, have to implement the legislation. He can make exactly what rules he wants.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the noble Earl is right. However complicated the solution may be, the Government can find a way to produce guidelines for it. I am suggesting that the noble Earl's solution would be complex. We discussed the matter with the police and the police took the view that it would be difficult--in fact, they do not believe it to be a manageable proposition. I am putting that forward as a counter argument.
The noble Earl, Lord Russell, asked a straight question about the interchangeability of parts--not for the gun to which the parts belong, but for another gun. That is technically possible. I am prepared to accept expert opinion--it does vary on this matter--that it would be with some difficulty. The parts would not fit easily, but that it is technically possible is absolutely right, and parts can be interchanged.
The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, I should bring to the attention of the House that this is the Report stage of the Bill. All noble Lords have had the opportunity of speaking. It is time that my noble friend the Minister was able to finish her reply to all the points made.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. The Government have taken the view that the protection of the public should be the priority. I do not have to remind noble Lords why we are here and why this Bill is before the House: it is because of the massacre of young people in Dunblane. The Government have a duty to address this issue and have done so. We are now discussing means to ends rather than whether or not the Government should do anything at all.
The safest position must be to ensure that the entire gun is stored in secure, licensed pistol clubs and to take them out of general circulation. I must therefore urge my noble friend not to press the amendment.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken on this amendment and am gratified to hear that nearly all of your Lordships support it.
I was also gratified to hear the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, say that the Labour Benches will be given a free vote on the matter. However, I take issue with one point that he made; that is, that the adoption of Amendment No. 14--I believe I heard him right--would extend greatly the number and use of handguns as opposed to what might happen under Amendment No. 13. I have to put it to the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, that what we are talking about is not extending the number of handguns that would be in use under my Amendment No. 14; it is more that we would leave fewer people deprived of their legitimate sport and more able to continue with it if we accept the amendment.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, that is the same thing.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, it is not the same thing. The noble Lord is suggesting that fewer people would be able to continue shooting under Amendment No. 13; otherwise, I do not see the point of his intervention.
The noble Lord, Lord Hooson, referred to the experts in this matter. I can confirm that my noble friend Lady Blatch was good enough to interview Mr. Greenwood of the Firearms Research and Advisory Services yesterday. I believe she found his evidence helpful. We all agreed that it was a pity that the Government had not heard Mr. Greenwood's evidence in person before.
The noble Lord, Lord Hooson, and my noble friend Lady Blatch referred to the other place; that is, that the elected House should decide this matter. That is true. But your Lordships may be aware that in the other place the issue of segregation was raised but not put to the vote. It was always deferred to the next stage. It was raised in the Committee stage of the Whole House of the other place on 18th November but was then left to the standing committee. It was then deflected with a promise of further information. At Report stage in the other place it was raised again but was deemed--this is the important point--to be more suitable to be considered in greater depth when the Bill entered your Lordships' House, as it has now done. There were at least eight honourable Members from all sides of the House who supported it and took that view.
The noble Earl, Lord Russell, and my noble friend Lady Blatch in reply, said that most guns can be disassembled, as suggested by the amendment. Mr. Greenwood was extremely convincing yesterday and said that the figure is that at least 98 per cent. of the guns that we seek to cover can be disassembled. The idea of an owner hiding a small part of a pistol about his person is not very realistic. The pistol itself is not very big; that is why it is being separated from the
My noble friend finally prayed in aid the police. I am advised that only the Superintendents' Association agreed with the idea that central storage can be effective. I am reliably advised that it offered no evidence for that view. On the other hand, the Parliamentary Home Affairs Committee in the other place and the Association of Chief Police Officers, having set out the pros and cons of central storage, concluded that the risks from central storage were far greater than the risk of keeping firearms at home and they preferred the latter option, subject to suitable provisions. They did not even ask for the amendment.
I should conclude with what my noble friend said in relation to the report of Lord Cullen. Lord Cullen wisely goes this way and that in the body of his excellent document. But his conclusion is inescapable. In recommendation 24 he said that,
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 12) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 153; Not-Contents, 139.
4.45 p.m.
"Consideration should be given to restricting the availability of self-loading pistols and revolvers of any calibre which are held by individuals for use in target shooting preferably, by their disablement".
Those are the words which the Government have ignored, "preferably by disablement". I hope that your Lordships will support Lord Cullen's view. My noble friend knows that it is not easy for me to ask for the opinion of the House against the position that she is taking. But on this occasion I have to do so.
4.48 p.m.
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