| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, I support Amendment No. 15 in the name of my noble friend Lord Swansea. Your Lordships will see that this amendment merely extends subsection (2C) of my amendment, which confined it,
- "to pistols chambered for .22 or smaller rim-fire cartridges".
Lord Kimball: My Lords, in supporting my noble friend Lord Swansea, when my noble friend comes to wind up, will she confirm to the House that in the past 40 years there has been no single instance of a .32 wad-cutter being used in crime? Will she also confirm to the House that the muzzle velocity of the .32 wad-cutter pistol is exactly half that of a .22 rim-fire? The .32 wad-cutter has a muzzle velocity of 700 feet per second as against 1,200 feet per second of a .22 rim-fire. It is purely and simply a very accurate, low-velocity target-shooting weapon, which is favoured and used in the Commonwealth Games and at all major international shooting competitions.
I hope that your Lordships will look with sympathy on my noble friend's amendment. As my noble friend Lord Pearson said, in fairness to our competition shooters we should pass this amendment.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, used unfortunate words. He said that the amendment now before us "merely extends" the application of his Amendment No. 14. For those of us who believe that the Bill has already been weakened by Amendment No. 14, to "merely extend" it, as proposed, would be even worse.
Lord Gisborough: My Lords, perhaps we may extend just a modicum of reason. We cannot allow reason to go totally out of the window. Here is something which is less than the .22. Surely there is an argument for getting rid of the .22 and allowing the wad-cutter to remain.
Lord Monson: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, said that this amendment extended the Bill. But as the Government's own firearms advisor, Mr. Warlow, has already admitted, the power of the .32 wad-cutter is no more than that of a .22. If this amendment is not agreed, British competitors in the Commonwealth Games will be the only people in the entire Commonwealth who are not allowed to practise for the games on their own home ground. They will have to go to France, Belgium or somewhere else to practise and that would be absolutely shameful. I hope that your Lordships will support this amendment.
The Earl of Errol: My Lords, I should like to ask one question. If this calibre of weapon is banned, can we host the Commonwealth Games again?
Lord Brain: My Lords, perhaps to prevent a reply that the Minister may make, I shall make it clear that the wad-cutter cartridge is totally different from any pointed bullet cartridge used in other forms of pistol shooting. It should be very easy for any police officer to be instructed in the total difference. It was demonstrated to me yesterday that a wad-cutter cartridge would not load into another form of
.32 pistol. Equally, a normal cartridge does not load and operate effectively in a wad-cutter and would be a great danger to the user of the wad-cutter. I support this amendment.
Viscount Massereene and Ferrard: My Lords, I believe that it is necessary to specify specifically ".32 S & W Long" for the simple reason that in both cases the length referred to is that of the cartridge case of one inch, but with the bullet in it it is a little bit more than that.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the aim of Amendment No. 15, tabled in the name of my noble friend Lord Swansea, would permit centre-fire pistols chambered for .32 cartridges to be held at licensed clubs in addition to .22 rimfire pistols. The Government's position is well known. It is that all handguns are to be banned except for small calibre pistols. That is because there is a case for allowing only a limited number of handguns to be held in secure conditions. Without that outlet some target shooters might be inclined to go underground, thus increasing the risk to public safety.
There are concerns that by exempting one type of .32 calibre handgun, loopholes will be created so that all guns of such calibre will be freely available. Other .32 calibre pistols capable of firing high velocity rounds several times more powerful than the .22 rimfire and wad-cutter cartridges could be allowed through. Many .32 calibre automatic and pocket pistols are used in crime. But there is also the possibility of handguns already chambered for this particular cartridge being technically modified to fire the more dangerous round. That would constitute a very serious risk to public safety.
I say to my noble friend Lord Kimball, that he is absolutely right on both points when one refers strictly to the wad-cutter. My information is that the wording of this amendment is not strictly related to the wad-cutter. It is open to wider interpretation. That is the difficulty in reconciling what has been said in support of this amendment and what the amendment actually provides. It is for those reasons that I believe we should maintain the strict stance that the Government have maintained throughout this Bill. Therefore I ask that the amendment is not pressed.
Lord Monson: My Lords, the Minister said that the .32 wad-cutter can be illegally modified to take a more powerful type of .32 cartridge. Does she not agree that if that were to happen it would endanger the life--certainly the limbs or the right hand--of the person who had illegally modified and fired the gun?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am not sure. Did the noble Lord say that it would endanger the limbs of the person doing the modification?
Lord Monson: My Lords, if fired, yes--because the gun would probably explode in his hand.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I understand the point that the noble Lord is making. It came up in one of the discussions that I have had on these matters with an expert. I do not think that the issue is whether the wadcutter can be modified. I believe that an interpretation of the wording could include other .32s, which links in with the point made by the noble Lord earlier. The interpretation of the amendment would go wider than the wadcutter. Other .32s are capable of firing at a velocity several times higher than that of the wadcutter.
Earl Peel: My Lords, my noble friend agreed with everything that was said--
Earl Peel: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I believe that my noble friend agreed with everything that was said by my noble friend Lord Kimball, but she went on to say that she thought that the amendment was faulty in some way. That being the case, is my noble friend suggesting that she might be prepared to come back with another amendment at Third Reading to overcome the difficulty? Therefore, might we not expect something to be brought forward?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I can never give an answer to the question which my noble friend invites me to consider, unless it is "without prejudice". My answer to my noble friend Lord Kimball was in response to the words that he used. He asked whether there were any examples of wadcutters being used in crime. The answer is, very definitely, no. However, the amendment goes rather wider than the description of a wadcutter.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, with the leave of the House--
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, with the leave of the House--
The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, I have already come to the Dispatch Box once this afternoon to remind noble Lords that this is Report stage. This amendment stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Swansea and it is probably time that he made a decision on what to do with it.
Lord Swansea: My Lords, I am somewhat disappointed by the reply given by my noble friend
on the Front Bench because it has been shown quite conclusively that the wadcutter in .32 calibre is of very low power. Indeed, it is only fractionally more than that of the .22 long rifle cartridge. I am not able to accept my noble friend's reply, so I seek the opinion of the House.5.12 p.m.
On Question, Whether Amendment No. 15, as an amendment to Amendment No. 14, shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 102; Not-Contents, 158.
Abinger, L.
Ailesbury, M.
Ampthill, L.
Annaly, L.
Arran, E.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Boardman, L.
Brain, L.
Braybrooke, L.
Broadbridge, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burton, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clifford of Chudleigh, L.
Clitheroe, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Congleton, L.
Cornwallis, L.
Cottesloe, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Crook, L.
Cross, V.
De Saumarez, L.
Denbigh, E.
Derwent, L.
Dilhorne, V.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Erroll, E.
Exmouth, V.
Feversham, L.
Gisborough, L.
Glasgow, E.
Granard, E.
Gray, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Hemphill, L.
Hertford, M.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hylton, L.
Iddesleigh, E.
Inchyra, L.
Kimball, L. [Teller.]
Kintore, E.
Knutsford, V.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Leigh, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Monckton of Brenchley, V.
Monson, L.
Monteagle of Brandon, L.
Mottistone, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Munster, E.
Newall, L.
Norfolk, D.
Norrie, L.
Northumberland, D.
Ogmore, L.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quinton, L.
Rathcavan, L.
Reay, L.
Rennell, L.
Saint Oswald, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stanley of Alderley, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Swansea, L. [Teller.]
Swinfen, L.
Swinton, E.
Taverne, L.
Teviot, L.
Tollemache, L.
Vernon, L.
Vinson, L.
Wharton, B.
Wrenbury, L.
Wyatt of Weeford, L.
Wynford, L.
Yarborough, E.
Zouche of Haryngworth, L.
Aberdare, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Alderdice, L.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Balfour, E.
Bellwin, L.
Beloff, L.
Berkeley, L.
Birdwood, L.
Blatch, B.
Blease, L.
Bowness, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Cadman, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cockfield, L.
Courtown, E.
Cowley, E.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.] Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Devonport, V.
Digby, L.
Donoughue, L.
Downshire, M.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fitt, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenamara, L.
Goschen, V.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greene of Harrow Weald, L.
Grimston of Westbury, L.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Henley, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Hughes, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Inglewood, L.
Jeger, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennet, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kinnoull, E.
Kitchener, E.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lockwood, B.
Long, V.
Lovell-Davis, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.] Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Merrivale, L.
Mersey, V.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Mountevans, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Napier and Ettrick, L.
Nicol, B.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Paul, L.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rawlings, B.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
St. Davids, V.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B.
Serota, B.
Shepherd, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Sudeley, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Temple of Stowe, E.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Winston, L.
Resolved in the negative, and Amendment No. 15 disagreed to accordingly.
5.21 p.m.
On Question, Amendment No. 14 agreed to.
Clause 9 [Firearm certificates to be subject to special conditions]:
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page