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Firearms (Amendment) Bill
8.35 p.m.
Consideration of amendments on Report resumed.
Clause 22 [Duration of licence and renewal]:
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 33:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, Amendment No. 33 tabled in my name specifically deals with the recommendation made in the Tenth Report of the Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Deregulation (1996-97 Session, HL Paper 26). It concerns the power of the Secretary of State in Clause 22(2) of the Bill to alter by order the length of pistol club licences from the six years decreed in subsection (1). Where this period is shortened, then, in accordance with the Select Committee's recommendation, those licences already in force should not be affected. Only new or renewed licences issued after the order comes into force would be affected. That is the purpose of the amendment and I commend it to the House. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 24 [Revocation of licence]:
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 34:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 34, I speak also to Amendments Nos. 35 and 36. The amendments address a gap in the Bill as to the arrangements for small calibre pistols which are kept at licensed pistol clubs.
Clause 9 of the Bill requires that any firearm certificate for a small calibre pistol shall, if the pistol is for target shooting, require that it be kept at a licensed pistol club specified in the certificate. An owner who breaches this condition of his firearm certificate commits an offence.
The pistol club licence will be granted by the Secretary of State and Clause 24 of the Bill will allow the Secretary of State to revoke the licence if he thinks fit. The question therefore arises of what should happen to the pistols if a club licence is revoked.
The amendments will allow the police to serve a notice on the responsible officer of the revoked club requiring him to deliver up any small calibre pistols held on the club premises.
The Government anticipate that in most such cases, unusual though we expect them to be, the police would visit the club to take the pistols away. The notice gives them the authority to do that. Alternatively, there is provision in Clause 10(3)(e) of the Bill for the chief officer to grant a permit allowing the responsible officer to arrange carriage of the pistols to the police by a third party.
The other question is what should happen when an owner, lawfully and properly, has been keeping his small calibre pistol at a club whose licence, for reasons which have nothing to do with him, is revoked. The amendments mean that the police would write to all the people who have firearm certificates or permits for small calibre pistols which are kept at the club requiring them to deliver up the certificate or permit within 21 days for amendment.
The documents will need to be amended to delete the club which has been revoked and to show that the pistol is to be kept at the member's new club if he has found one or by the police if he has not. The amendments also mean
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Blatch moved Amendments Nos. 35 and 36:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 25 [Exemptions from section 1 of the 1968 Act for officers etc. of licensed pistol clubs]:
Lord Monson moved Amendment No. 37:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment returns to the important issue of newcomers who are interested in taking up pistol shooting. As drafted the Bill requires an individual to obtain a firearm certificate before that person has had an opportunity to try out the sport in a licensed club. That reverses the precedent in operation for rifle clubs since 1920 and will discourage many people from taking an interest in pistol shooting. The amendment enables a newcomer to be introduced to the .22 pistol before he or she finally decides to take up the sport and apply for a firearm certificate.
When I moved a similar, but much less tightly drafted, amendment in Committee, the Minister, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Drumadoon, said that the Government could not accept it, as it would,
This revised amendment closes that loophole, as it restricts an individual to shooting at a club without a certificate for a period of approximately three months (90 days). An individual will not be able to shoot "indefinitely" as, after that three months' period, he or she would be required to apply for a certificate if he or she wished to continue.
The other objection to the amendment has been the perceived threat to public safety. In Committee, the Minister said at col. 603 that,
Throughout the debates on the Bill the Government have given a firm commitment to .22 pistol shooting. Indeed, in Committee the Minister said:
The Lord Advocate (Lord Mackay of Drumadoon): My Lords, I make it clear at the outset that since this issue was debated in Committee the Government have given further consideration to the matter in the light of what was said on that occasion. We have a certain degree of sympathy with what lies behind the amendment. However, we remain of the view that, notwithstanding the narrowing of the amendment, there are some difficulties with it.
Our concern remains that there may be an argument that it might permit an unsuitable and potentially dangerous individual to join a club without having been vetted for a firearm certificate by the police, and to do so in order to gain access to lethal club weapons, perhaps with a view to endeavouring to remove them from the premises.
On the other hand, as I have hinted, we see the force of the view that it is important to allow new shooters to enter the sport and that the Bill as it presently stands may make it somewhat difficult for them to do so. They would, at present at least, be restricted to the low-power air or carbon dioxide powered guns, as discussed on previous occasions.
It also appears that it may be possible to strengthen the procedures for the granting of firearm certificates by introducing some period of use of a gun before a firearm certificate is finally granted. For those reasons we have reached the view that it may be possible to accept an amendment along the general lines suggested by the noble Lord but only if certain changes are made to it. In particular, we would wish to pay attention and give consideration to the role of the police in supervising and being involved in the probationary use for a period of three months or whatever period is specified.
Accordingly, on the understanding that we will give very careful consideration to whether it is possible to bring forward a Government amendment to meet that concern, I hope that it may be possible for the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment. I hope that he will recognise that we are allied to the concern that lies behind it. However, we are not satisfied that the amendment is the correct way forward.
Lord Monson: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his partial sympathy for the amendment. I appreciate that the Government wish to tidy it up. There is not a great deal of time between now and Third Reading. I understood the noble and learned Lord to say that the Government were considering bringing forward an amendment. I wonder whether he can indicate that there is a very good chance--as opposed to a slight chance--of the Government coming forward with an amendment of their own. It would be very useful to know that at this stage.
Page 10, line 23, at end insert--
("(2A) An order under subsection (2) above reducing the period for which a licence may be granted or renewed shall only apply to licences granted or renewed after the date on which the order comes into force.").
Page 11, line 6, at end insert--
("(ab) require the person or persons notified to surrender forthwith into the custody of the chief officer of police for the area in which the premises are situated any small-calibre pistols stored on the club premises;").
Page 11, line 9, at end insert--
("(2A) Where the licence of a licensed pistol club is revoked by the Secretary of State under subsection (2) above, notice shall be given to each member of the club holding a firearm certificate or visitor's firearm permit--
(a) informing the member that the licence has been revoked; and
(b) if the chief officer thinks fit, requiring the member to deliver up his firearm certificate or, as the case may be, his visitor's firearm permit within 21 days of the date of the notice, for the purpose of amending it.
(2B) A notice under subsection (2A) above to a member of a pistol club whose licence has been revoked shall be given by the chief officer of police who granted the certificate or permit to that member.
(2C) The holder of a firearm certificate or a visitor's firearm permit granted in respect of a small-calibre pistol which is required by the certificate or permit to be kept at the licensed premises of a licensed pistol club shall not be guilty of any offence under this Act or the 1968 Act by reason only that the pistol continues to be kept at those premises after the licence has been revoked and before the pistol is surrendered in accordance with subsection (2)(ab) above.").
Page 11, line 10, after ("(2)") insert ("or (2A)").
Page 11, line 22, at end insert--
("(3) A member of a licensed pistol club approved by the Secretary of State may, without holding a firearm certificate, use under the supervision of an officer of the club, for a period not exceeding 90 consecutive days, a small-calibre pistol and ammunition when engaged as a member of the club in, or in connection with, target shooting.").
"allow a person to join a club and shoot with pistols indefinitely without ever being vetted".--[Official Report, 21/1/97; col. 603.]
The Minister had a perfectly valid point.
"we do not believe that this is an area where public safety should be compromised".
Yet a newcomer to a club who wishes to try out a pistol will be constantly supervised on the range by a club official. My amendment specifically provides that that should be so. It will not allow a newcomer to possess a pistol outside the club under any circumstances.
"The shooting of .22 pistols has had an honourable place in Olympic competition since 1896. Tens of thousands of law-abiding citizens of this country"--
a point so well made by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart--
"enjoy this activity perfectly legitimately".--[Official Report, 16/1/97; col. 307.]
If the Government can make this small but important concession, it would go a long way to encourage people to carry on that honourable tradition. I beg to move.
8.45 p.m.
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