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Earl Attlee: My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point. It is incredible that even members of the Metropolitan Police do not know when they attend an incident or are investigating a potential criminal whether there is a possibility of a legal firearm or shotgun being involved. They do know if they are involved with a motor car whose owner has a history of firearm offences, but if they are dealing with people who have no history of a firearm offence and who have only a legal firearm, they do not know. The amendment is appropriate.
Earl Peel: My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. I do not in any way wish to pour cold water over it, having said that I shall support it. But, as a matter of interest, I suspect that the amendment would not have made a great deal of difference to the case of James Hamilton because the Central Region already had the necessary information, which it should of course have used. That is by the by, but it is a point that may be worthy of making.
On the more general point, I question whether it is possible to have genuine control over who has and who has not got guns, and who is suitable to have a gun, without such a measure. I noticed that earlier my noble and learned friend the Lord Advocate said that there is co-operation between different forces. That may be open to debate. But one thing is for sure. Here is a real chance
to ensure that that happens. I thoroughly agree with my noble friend and I hope that other noble Lords will support him.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, is right when he says that the amendment does no mischief to the Bill. On that basis, looking around our Benches, I can say that I would not be advising any of my noble friends to vote against the amendment, not that my noble friend Lord Stoddart would pay any attention to anything that I said anyway. I am not sure about my noble friend Lord Kilbracken, who is also an independent spirit in these matters. But my noble friend Lord Morris and I will not be voting against the amendment if it is put to the vote.
As to whether this is the best or right alternative to the PHOENIX computer database, which the Minister described last time, it is a technical rather than a policy issue and I do not know the answer. When I asked in Committee, the Minister said that the PHOENIX database was already up and running. I now have to ask is it up and running and capable of doing this job? If it is not and a new database could come into effect earlier, then the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford's amendment would be preferable. But it is not an issue on which I have any expert knowledge.
Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, this amendment would have had little to do with the incidents we are talking about, nor with whether people are licensed to have pistols or any other weapons. However, it is surprising that the Government are so slow in coming to terms with information technology. Why are the Government so slow? In Northern Ireland we have computerised cattle tagging, which has been very significant in the fight against BSE. The Government recognise this and suggest that we should have had it previously. The Government do not like the idea of ID cards so they are not going to go down that line.
In Northern Ireland we have a computerised database for all firearms which is centrally held by the RUC. Every single weapon is numbered and held on it. We have simplified it further by not having a shotgun certificate and a firearm certificate but a simple firearm certificate with the number of every weapon that is held on it.
That is not just because of incidents such as Dunblane but because it makes the whole process much simpler. If a weapon is found, its owner can be traced almost immediately. If it has not been reported as being lost, then that person has infringed the law. If it is found, it can be determined whether it may have been used in a terrorist incident. Every single pistol has been forensically tested and its various particulars are held at the computerised centre.
A computerised system would be very straightforward. My firearms certificate has everything written on it that any policeman stopping me would wish to know. He knows where I am permitted to use my shotgun, how many cartridges I am allowed--and that cannot be altered because it is a computerised
print-out. He knows exactly where I am allowed to use heavier calibre rifles; he knows if I have a personal protection weapon and where I am allowed to carry it; he knows that if I have one I am not allowed to buy more ammunition without the chief constable's permission. It is extremely straightforward and I cannot understand why the Government seem so frightened of information technology.
Lord Pilkington of Oxenford: My Lords, as one who has loyally supported the Government today, I would urge my noble friend the Minister to give attention to this amendment. Many of us on these Benches are concerned about this. It is a practical amendment; we do not want some difficulty about handling the computers. Why not allow this amendment to go forward? It would cause enormous happiness on these Benches and I hope the noble Minister will agree to it.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has made a good case for this amendment. What happens when the holder of a licenced firearm--and in particular a rifle or a shotgun--becomes mentally ill? For example, if he is either sectioned or certified, is there any co-operation between the health authorities and police authorities? If there is not, it is high time there was.
Lord Monson: My Lords, unlike most of the major amendments today--the pros and cons of which I have mulled over intensively over the past days and weeks--I have given very little thought to this one and I approach it with a completely open mind. I find myself persuaded by the powerful arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, and indeed by most other noble Lords. Therefore, I would have no hesitation in supporting the amendment if it were to go to a Division.
9.45 p.m.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I rise only to say how pleasant it is to find myself in agreement with my noble friend Lord McIntosh for the first time today. Of course, I shall support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, on that happy note, perhaps I may also say to all my noble friends and to all noble Lords who have spoken that I need no urging on the matter; I absolutely agree with all that has been said. I believe that it will be a very valuable addition to the police in their work of licensing and issuing certificates. Indeed, I share all the enthusiasm that has been voiced. I agree that it is particularly important to create on-line access to such records so that a police officer finding someone with a firearm or shotgun can always check whether he is licensed to possess it, in the same way as the police can now check, for example, car licence details at any time.
However, as I said at Committee stage, I believe that the matter is one which is not suitable for primary legislation and is better dealt with by administrative
means. At present, the information which is required for a national database is not held centrally but is kept by the police forces which issue the firearm and shotgun certificates.I should point out to the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, that, of course, the example of the RUC is not the best one to use in this context because it relates to one police force the size of which is very different from the number of police forces about which we are talking in England and Wales. Of course, individual forces can do all the things to which the noble Lord referred in the force area, but the PHOENIX programme (about which I shall speak in a moment) will allow one force to communicate with another.
Viscount Brookeborough: My Lords, with due respect to the Minister, information technology is not just about Northern Ireland; indeed, it is worldwide and instant. I look forward to a time when it can be used correctly.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I certainly agree with that too.
As my noble friend knows, we are discussing with the Association of Chief Police Officers in England and Scotland a system called PHOENIX which will be available to firearms licensing departments throughout Great Britain. The Phoenix Project Board reviewed its priorities in November 1996 and the work on a register of firearm certificate holders is high on the list of priorities for development.
It is the intention that PHOENIX will contain full up-to-date copies of all necessary police force firearm and shotgun licensing records. Other records which it is proposed that it should hold are criminal records information, local intelligence information and information about people who have had gun licences revoked or who are for some other reason considered to be unfit to possess a firearm. It will also enable the police to cross-check information about criminal convictions with holders of firearm and shotgun certificates to ensure that, if a certificate needs to be revoked following a conviction, this is picked up. It is envisaged that all police firearms licensing departments in England, Wales and Scotland will have on-line access to PHOENIX.
Perhaps I may point out to my noble friend that the amendment on the Marshalled List says, first:
- "There shall be established a central register of all persons to whom a shot gun or firearm certificate has been issued"--
- "record a suitable identifying number for each person to whom a certificate is issued".
- "provide access on-line to all police forces and other agencies with access to the National Police Computer including, for those persons convicted of an offence for which a custodial sentence has been imposed, the prison authorities".
I understand my noble friend's cynicism about how long we would have to wait for this service to come on line. However, that must be an operational decision. Indeed, the object of bringing the programme on line is the subject of detailed planning. I should tell the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, that PHOENIX is in place and is up and running. Police forces are beginning to communicate across forces, but this programme for the licensing of firearms will have to be bolted on and that, of course, needs detailed planning. That process is not yet complete. When it is, and when the police determine that it is the next piece of work to undertake, they will get on and do it. As I said, the difference is a narrow one. It is a question of when rather than if. However, I agree with everything that has been said about the value of a national database.
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