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Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, I hope I may ask the noble Viscount one question as he has referred to his noble friend Lord Beaverbrook. Does he think that tainted money, held at the moment by the Conservative Party, should be returned to the administrators of Polly Peck International, or does he not?
Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, I anticipated that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, would have forgotten the answer that I gave him 18 months ago to that very question, which was that if the money is tainted it most certainly should be returned. That is no more nor less than I said 18 months ago.
It seems to me that at a time when we hear many worries in public about the excessive power of the state it is perverse to suggest that we should ask political parties to become dependent on public funding. As I said, I was extremely pleased to hear the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, repeat his doubts on that score.
Your Lordships might also like to consider whether state funding does anything to stem corruption. The noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham, mentioned other countries. Certainly from the record of certain other countries, which I am far too delicate to mention, I can see no reason why it should do so.
The noble Lord, Lord Desai, in yet another remarkable speech to your Lordships, referred to the fear of buying insider information as being one of the matters that should worry us. I agree with him. I do not see that that fear either is addressed by state funding. In a socialist society--the noble Lord referred to a capitalist society--the record might suggest that it is much easier to buy insider information even than it is in a capitalist society. We have only to go east of the Oder-Neisse line to see the truth of that. There is every reason to suppose that it would have much the same effect on political parties as it has had on industry.
Our experience of state funding in other fields has surely shown that it encourages incompetence and poor responsiveness to the public. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, I think the case for transparency is a much more serious one. As I made clear in my reply to the noble Lord when he raised this subject 18 months ago, it certainly is a cause very much in tune with the current Zeitgeist. This was the matter that concerned most of your Lordships during this evening's debate. However, it seems to me that as in so many things it is a matter of balance. It is important that influence and honours should not be corruptly bought and sold and that the
public should be satisfied with the system. At the same time donors, particularly individuals, have a right to privacy. Indeed, some give anonymously in order that it should remain impossible for them to influence the recipient in their favour.I remind the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, that this is a consideration that perhaps lies behind the Labour Party's extensive use of blind trusts, about which the noble Lord, Lord Richard, waxed so eloquent.
Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, says one. In that case I wish to ask him whether or not my information is true. I proceed a little further. I understand--as he said--that Mr. Blair has established a blind trust called the Labour Leader's Office Fund. I also understand that Mr. Prescott receives support from the John Prescott Campaign/Research Trust, while Mr. Gordon Brown is close to the Industrial Research Trust/Fair Tax Campaign. I also understand that among the trustees of these blind trusts are Members of your Lordships' House. I remind the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, that the sums they collect are not trivial. The Sunday Times is not a paper I always believe. I have to say that in advance of referring to it. However, the Sunday Times thinks that Mr. Blair's fund has attracted donations and pledges of about £2 million. Is that what the noble Lord, Lord Richard, might call--I think I quote him accurately--thoroughly unhealthy? He seems to think that any large sum of money is by definition thoroughly unhealthy, except of course when the large sum is taxpayers' money which is used to subsidise broken down nationalised industry.
Mr. Prescott himself told the BBC's "World at One" on 18th November last:
- "The argument is that if the leader knows who has given them money, they may give favours ... It's crucially important that the leader is not aware of any financial contributions given to his actual office".
Time presses and I apologise for having spoken for so long. In all this we should remember that politics is about interest. I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that the prosperity and liberty of this country depend on politicians serving the interests of individuals and of bodies, corporate and non-corporate. We must all judge as best we can where the balance of national advantage lies.
I cannot believe, however, that the national interest can be served by discouraging anyone from supporting a political party. To attempt to conduct political debate by holding interest at arm's length smacks of the innocence that courts disaster. Far better to encourage
interests to participate in politics and to rely on controls that provide a balance between transparency and discretion.I hope that I have been able to convince your Lordships, without repeating everything I said 18 months ago, that the state of party funding is not the problem that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, supposes it to be. Did I not know him better I would be tempted to think that he sees this subject as a handy stick with which to beat the Government. If one subtracts the Liberal speakers who have loyally rallied to their leader's banner, one does not discern even in this House from the number of speakers this afternoon a burning interest in the issue. Nevertheless, I acknowledge that the subject is an important and difficult one. It has now been debated twice in your Lordships' House and the subject has been extensively looked at since the Houghton Report over 20 years ago. I echo the tribute paid by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, to the late Lord Houghton. I believe that extensive safeguards exist. Despite what the noble Lord, Lord Holme, said about the dementi on state funding, the Motion suggests to me that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, wants state funding, or to reduce voluntary support for the main parties to somewhere nearer the level his own side can attract--a common argument of all those who feel that the rest of us owe them a living.
I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his Motion, if only for parochial reasons regarding Wednesday debates in your Lordships' House. If he wishes to press it to a Division, I hope that noble Lords will join me in rejecting his Motion as a partisan attack by a party barred from office for longer than it, but not the electorate, would like. To accept the Motion would, I suggest, merely imply that there is something in the straw man which the Liberals have put up to your Lordships this afternoon.
6.12 p.m.
Lord Jenkins of Hillhead: My Lords, I am never a great believer in second speeches from the same person in a single debate. Therefore I shall not detain your Lordships for long. The noble Viscount the Leader of the House generally has the effect of putting, or keeping, me in a good temper. I am bound to say, however, that I thought his speech did not very directly reply to the case I had endeavoured to put.
The noble Viscount's speech fell into three parts. First, he made a great issue about the fact that I had made a change in the Motion a few days ago. I made the change because the noble and learned Lord, Lord Nolan, told me, which I did not know--perhaps I should have done--that his remit comes to an end in about six months' time and that he has a full programme until then. Therefore one had to seek an alternative method. I immediately instructed the Liberal Whips' office to ring the noble Viscount's office to tell him that I had made the change and why I had made it in order that he need not waste a large part of his speech replying to the original Motion. However, I clearly under-estimated the need he felt for a little padding for his speech.
Secondly, the noble Viscount devoted a large part of his speech to attacking the case--he fairly said that I had not made it--for public funding. He admitted freely that I was against it. Nonetheless he devoted the second part of his speech to that subject. The third part of his speech he devoted to some exchanges with noble Lords opposite about the financing of the Leader of the Labour Opposition's office--not a very direct reply to the Motion which I and my noble friends have put down.
However, the debate has been extremely useful. I am struck by several factors. First, compared with 20 months ago the mood on the Benches opposite has become much more defensive. That is obvious. The speeches we heard from the Back Benches, I am afraid, gave the impression that there was a lot to hide. It was also noticeable that, with the exception of the noble, and in this respect I think gallant, Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, there was no--I shall not use the harsh term, party apparatchik; I shall use a warmer term--distinguished officer of the Conservative Party who felt any compulsion to intervene in the debate and to defend the present position.
The noble Viscount appealed to me not to have a Division. I must say that he would have some frustrated troops behind him if I were to change my mind. I am bound to say to him that I am perfectly willing to regard this as an honourable exception for a Wednesday debate. I commend the Motion.
6.15 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Motion shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 138; Not-Contents, 185.
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