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Lord Skidelsky: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way and for her comparison with Lord Joseph, which I regard as an honour. However, I did not talk about rote learning.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I apologise if I confused the noble Lord's speech with that of the noble Lord, Lord Beloff. It is difficult to read my writing at this stage. However, I intended offence to neither in making that statement. The comment stands, I do not have time to repeat it but I now attribute the remark to the noble Lord, Lord Beloff.
Lord Joseph was of the opinion that the first call on resources ought to be for children who under-achieve and those for whom much needs to be done. From these Benches, our view is that a great deal needs to be done. Some of it will be achieved by co-operation on the second part of the Bill. The first part will neither tackle the problem nor solve it but will make the system anarchic.
The noble Baroness, Lady Young, referred to a sort of dying situation. I believe that was her phrase. I take the view that this last gesture towards anarchy and market forces is something that we hope the
Government will never see on the statute book. If we were to see it, like so much of the Government's legislation over the years, it would have to be rectified.8.17 p.m.
Lord Henley: My Lords, the noble Baroness referred to an article which I suspect was in the Guardian. It claimed that the Government proposed to cut the number of students in higher education. I wish to make a brief recommendation to the noble Baroness. I do not often read the Guardian and I suggest she tries another paper. When I do read it, I am always amazed by what I find in it. I can give the noble Baroness an assurance that there is no truth in the allegation. It comes from a complete and utter misreading of the evidence which the Government put forward to the Dearing committee. That evidence is publicly available and the noble Baroness can look at it as and when she wishes.
The noble Lord, Lord Morris, posed me a challenge at the end of his fine speech when he mentioned a verse from The Revelation. I was grateful for the presence of my noble friend Lord Elton immediately behind me, who informed me of the content of the verse. If I have got it right, I understand that my response must be to "spew you out of my mouth".
I look forward to the Committee and later stages of the Bill. There is a great deal of discussion that we can have and moments when there will be considerable agreement in the House. It is important that the House should perform its revising function well and properly when we reach those stages. I look forward to the detailed grammatical discussions with the noble Lord, Lord Morris, and others. I shall greatly enjoy listening to his drafting skills.
By way of introduction, I wish to say that I note the matters that the noble Lord, Lord Tope, the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, and others raised and what they said about disqualified persons. I also note the comments from the noble Baroness that the provision was likely to have been drafted by a lawyer. She is probably right; most Bills are drafted by lawyers. I speak as one, but not one who could ever draft a Bill. I wish to give one brief assurance to the noble Baroness that I note her concerns and those of others. We shall examine the wording, without getting away from the principle of the clause, to see whether between now and the Committee stage or between the Committee and Report stages we can bring forward something slightly better.
In opening, I wish briefly to check the remarks from the noble Lord, Lord Morris, about lack of funding. I find it quite extraordinary that when he and the rest of his party are trying to establish their credentials for fiscal rectitude, they should complain that there is a lack of funding and say that, should they be in government, they would provide more. Let me make it quite clear that we have increased spending by up to 50 per cent. per pupil in real terms since we came to power in 1979. The party opposite cannot claim that it could increase
funding, as I think the noble Lord's right honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition has done, by taking money away from the social security budget.
Lord Morris of Castle Morris: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for allowing me to intervene. I just hope for the sake of my political reputation that he will agree that at no point in my speech did I make any spending commitment.
Lord Henley: It is not for me to defend the political reputation of the noble Lord. He might not have made any demands for further public spending but he did talk about a lack of funding and lack of resources. I shall look at his precise words in the Official Report. If there were a lack of resources and the party of which he is a member happened to be in government, and if he admitted that there was a lack of funding, surely he would do something about that funding. His right honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition in another place has said that yes, they would take money from the social security budget. I should just like to ask how they will do that and why they have opposed every single attempt that we have made over the years to make reductions in the social security budget. I should like to know just how they will manage.
I also make the point that Her Majesty's Chief Inspector made it quite clear that there is no relationship between funding and how well schools do. He made that quite clear in his report. There are schools with quite different levels of spending and LEAs with different levels of spending. Some are doing well and some are doing badly.
In passing, let me say to the noble Lord, Lord Annan, with regard Her Majesty's Chief Inspector's report that I was rather saddened by what the noble Lord said. I recommend him to have a look at that report. He will note that Her Majesty's Chief Inspector in fact goes out of his way to praise those schools that have done well and those that are improving. He lists them by name. Last year we held a number of receptions to praise and thank those schools. I recommend the noble Lord to look at the report, if he has not already done so. I shall make sure that he receives a copy and will personally send him one. The reporting of that report is a matter for the press. Sadly, it will always concentrate on the more lurid aspects rather than point to the successes.
In the brief time available to me, I should like to address a number of questions. I dare say I shall not manage to address them all in the course of this evening. But, as always, I shall write, where appropriate, to noble Lords and try to deal with some of their concerns before we reach Committee stage.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon raised a number of concerns about the provisions in the Bill to extend selection and other measures such as adding sixth-form schools. He asked whether they should apply equally to voluntary schools as well as grant-maintained schools. I was interested in his proposal that voluntary schools should be given the same deregulatory freedom as grant-maintained schools to change their character. But I was not sure whether the right reverend Prelate's colleagues in the Catholic Church shared his views on
that. It would be helpful to know just how far a proposal of that sort would have general agreement. Certainly I hope that between now and Committee stage we can come back to it.Similarly, on the question of whether Church secondary schools would have to consult the diocese, I can give the assurance that Church schools will be expected to consult their diocese before making use of their new powers on selection or on a change of character. That will certainly be specified in guidance. But it would cut across a fundamental principle of the Bill as it stands if schools were required to obtain the consent of the diocese itself.
The right reverend Prelate and other noble Lords also mentioned their concerns about the new successor body to SCAA and NCVQ which at the moment it is proposed to call the QNCA. I gather that there was broadly a general welcome for the concept of bringing together the two bodies. That is very much in the spirit of the merger of the Department for Education and Employment, a merger which has gone very well and one that we should like to see extended.
With regard to the name itself, I quite understand that some people, for one reason or another, are worried about the acronym and how it might be pronounced. The right reverend Prelate quite rightly had other concerns of a more serious nature about its naming. I am prepared to look again at that when we come back to the matter at a later stage.
Perhaps I may just correct one noble Lord who spoke about Dr. Nicholas Tate having been appointed as chairman. He has been appointed now as chief executive designate of the new authority. We shall shortly announce the appointment of a chairman and we are looking very hard to make sure that we have exactly the right kind of chairman who will command respect from both the world of education and the world of work. I can also give an assurance to noble Lords opposite that we have kept their colleagues in another place fully informed about the selection process. In no way will they be seen as political appointments.
I understand that there are a number of concerns over the size and possible representation of the new body. My concerns and those of the department are so far as possible to keep it relatively small and relatively strategic and not to have it take up representatives of specific interests. As soon as one starts to produce a list of all the specific interests, one quickly finds that the body becomes far too large and unwieldy. Again, we can address that matter at later stages. But our desire is to keep it small and we hope that others can be co-opted on to specific committees for that particular body.
I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Walton, first raised the question of whether the Bill should include a general teaching council. Again, that issue was echoed by many other noble Lords, one of whom was, I understand, my noble friend Lord Beloff, from my own side. We should be happy to see teachers coming together to share examples of good practice and to promote positive images of the profession. But I must make clear that we would not wish to create a statutory body until there is a very clear view of the precise role that it should play
and how its membership should be determined. I am not sure that that can be done in the space of the Bill. No doubt other noble Lords will wish to come back to this matter at later stages, as I said. It is perhaps a matter for later discussion.My noble friend Lady Young raised a number of questions about the extent of the use of physical force and how far parents could go in terms of breaking up fights. Again, that is a detailed point to which I should like to return at a later stage. Clause 21 was added to the Bill in another place and provides clarification of the teachers' proper powers of restraint in that area.
My noble friend also had a number of concerns about assisted places at the British independent schools in Europe and the European schools. These are interesting proposals and it will be interesting to extend the assisted places scheme to give British citizens resident in the EU our support with those at some of those schools. Again, however, there are a number of issues which need to be addressed before we could proceed with such a scheme. In addition to the very great cost which it might have, there are obviously also difficult technical and legal issues, particularly when dealing with the circumstances of residents from so many other countries.
I should now like to say a few words about home-school contracts. I believe that point was first raised by the noble Lord, Lord Monkswell, but it might have been mentioned earlier. Again, other noble Lords have concerns about the issue. Let me make it clear that the Bill leaves the details of the home-school partnership documents to the admissions authorities themselves, the LEAs or others which adopt them. Such authorities will be required, first, to consult and, secondly, to have regard to guidance that comes from my right honourable friend. I can assure the noble Lord that the guidance will contain advice on including a clear statement of the school's own responsibilities and on consultation with parents.
I can also make it quite clear, in terms of the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Annan, about parents suing for breach of the home-school contract, that the Bill provides--in what I understand is Section 413B, subsection (6) inserted by Clause 30 (which I think must be last year's Bill, the Consolidation Act)--that home-school partnership documents cannot be used as a basis for legal action by the schools or parents.
The noble Lord, Lord Rix, outlined his anxieties in relation to the FE sector and said that he would be tabling an amendment. I am grateful to him for giving me notice of that fact. I do not wish to comment in detail at this stage, particularly since his proposal is analogous to one of the recommendations of the FEFC's learning difficulties and disabilities committee--the Tomlinson Committee. The recommendations of that committee, including one that the FEFC should take a wider view of progression within the wording of Schedule 2 of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 have now gone out for public consultation. In those circumstances, further comment before that consultation is finalised would be pre-emptive.
The noble Baroness, Lady David, voiced a number of anxieties in relation to Parts IV and V, particularly in regard to the Children's Consortium. She is right when she says that the concerns of the Children's Consortium have so far been relatively little discussed. That is not surprising as the consortium only raised those concerns with my department in the past month; that is, as the Bill was leaving the Commons. It has an eloquent advocate in the noble Baroness. I am sure that she will bring forward further detailed discussions on those matters in Committee.
I turn to the anxieties of the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, when he referred to specialist and selective schools. I suspect that there was a degree of misunderstanding by the noble Lord as to what they are. Specialist or selective schools can be different animals. A specialist school is one that has been so designated by the Secretary of State. It is one that will specialise, currently, in up to two--though two more are being added--different areas. First, technology, science and mathematics are specialised in at technology colleges; secondly, modern languages; and to come into existence will be arts colleges specialising in fine arts, performing arts or media arts and sports colleges, but not for one specific sport, so a student could not simply specialise in, say, football. They are secondary schools following the national curriculum but specialising in their own speciality. As specialist schools, if they wish--they do not have to--they will be able to select up to 30 per cent. of their pupils without central approval. They can select on the basis of aptitude in those specialisms or on the basis of more general skills or talents.
I turn now to what might be termed the meat of the Bill; it certainly took up most of the time in another place and has received a great deal of comment in this House. I suspect that it will also take up a bit of time in Committee. I refer to Clauses 1 to 18 or what were originally Clauses 1 to 19. They deal with extending choice, extending deregulation and developing grant-maintained programmes.
Originally I felt that there was considerable clear blue water between ourselves and the party opposite. Its hatred of any degree of choice or selection seemed clear in the statement made 18 months ago by the noble Lord's honourable friend Mr. Blunkett--"Watch my lips", we were told memorably. "Watch my lips. No selection by examination or interview." Since then we have seen a number of changes. We saw the noble Lord's right honourable friend Mr. Blair and his honourable friend Mrs. Harman sending their children to grant-maintained schools, to selective schools. And we have seen in Islington itself--I can pass this figure on to my noble friend Lord Beloff--that some 43 per cent. of the parents, not "barely a third", take their children to schools other than those in Islington.
I felt that possibly we had arrived at the position where the Labour Party was changing. But listening to noble Lords opposite we find that that is not the case; they are not in favour of any degree of choice or selection despite the fact that Mr. Blunkett said only the other day, in relation to grammar schools, that there was no threat to their continuance, their ethos or their quality. I dare say the fact that there is a by-election in
The Wirral where there are six selective schools in the constituency may have affected his wording. I am grateful that noble Lords opposite have now made it clear that they still believe in his original remarks: "Watch my lips. Watch my lips. No selection by examination or interview". I imagine that more recent comments did not go down particularly well. We heard Mr. Graham Lane making it clear that he envisages, if Labour takes power, closing down every single selective school by the year 2000. We know therefore the views of the party opposite.The noble Lord accused us of only being interested in school structure; he seemed to suggest that we had no interest in other matters. We believe school structure to be important and that is why we have done so much to get it right and are doing yet more. This Bill is not designed, as noble Lords implied, to bring back the old grammar school/secondary modern divide. As my noble friend Lady Perry made clear, we are not trying to force schools to go selective. We are trying to create a whole range of different structures. Some schools may want more selection; some may not; and some may wish to stay as they are. Therefore let us have some schools going selective, some going partially selective and some going grant-maintained either as comprehensives or selective schools.
The noble Lord said nothing in relation to the plans of the Labour Party for grant-maintained schools. I say to grant-maintained schools as a whole that if they listen carefully to what the Labour Party plans to do to grant-maintained schools it will make their flesh creep. I remind the noble Lord of what I understand the Labour Party is planning to do by way of taking away their freedoms--two LEA governors on the board and funding by the LEAs themselves--but allowing them to continue to call themselves something like a "foundation school".
Going back to the rich variety that we wish to see, let some schools remain comprehensive if they wish; let some remain grant-maintained comprehensives or LEA comprehensives; let some specialise. Again, we heard nothing from the noble Lord opposite about specialist schools. I have heard occasionally that the Labour Party supports specialist schools, but with the idea of selection coming into selective schools, I would be interested to know what degree of selection would be allowed to operate within a school's particular speciality.
All of us as parents know that children possess different talents and needs. That is why we want variety and choice in schools. There are many parents who want selection and that is why there are so many applicants to existing grammar schools. The simple point is that we want to allow schools to respond to what parents want; we are not suggesting compulsion.
My noble friend Lady Young made an interesting point about the effect of selection in Northern Ireland. We heard interesting comments from other noble Lords about the lack of selection throughout Europe, most of which has been proved conclusively not to be the case. There is selection in places like Germany in a system that is much admired by many in this country. On the subject of selection in Northern Ireland, one interesting
piece of evidence in relation to the impact of selection comes from that area. There the system of grammar schools and selection still obtains. In 1996 52 per cent. of 15 year-olds in Northern Ireland gained five good GCSEs compared with 43 per cent. of pupils in England. That seems to indicate that everyone benefits from a degree of selection, not only the elite.
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