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Division No. 1

CONTENTS
Abinger, L.
Ailesbury, M.
Ailsa, M.
Attlee, E. [Teller.]
Barber of Tewkesbury, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Blake, L.
Braybrooke, L.
Brookes, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chapple, L.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chorley, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clifford of Chudleigh, L.
Congleton, L.
Cottesloe, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Cross, V.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Erroll, E.
Exmouth, V.
Flowers, L.
Gage, V.
Gisborough, L.
Hardinge of Penshurst, L.
Harmsworth, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Howell, L.
Hylton, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Ilchester, E.
Inchyra, L.
Kitchener, E.
Knollys, V.
Liverpool, E.
McNair, L.
Manton, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Merrivale, L.
Milverton, L.
Monckton of Brenchley, V.
Monk Bretton, L.
Monson, L.
Moran, L.
Mottistone, L.
Moyne, L.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L. [Teller.]
Peel, E.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Raglan, L.
Rees, L.
Rennell, L.
Romney, E.
Rowallan, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandford, L.
Sandwich, E.
Savile, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon, V.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Suffolk and Berkshire, E.
Swansea, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Temple of Stowe, E.
Teviot, L.
Thurso, V.
Torphichen, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Wyatt of Weeford, L.
Wynford, L.
Zouche of Haryngworth, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Aberdare, L.
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Addison, V.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Balfour, E.
Banbury of Southam, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Beloff, L.
Biddulph, L.
Blatch, B.
Blease, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Cadman, L.
Calverley, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Clanwilliam, E.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cockfield, L.
Courtown, E.
Craigavon, V.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.] Cuckney, L.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L.
Cumberlege, B.
David, B.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Downshire, M.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Dundonald, E.
Elibank, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erne, E.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fisher of Rednal, B.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gainford, L.
Geraint, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glenamara, L.
Goschen, V.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grimston of Westbury, L.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayman, B.
Hayter, L.
Henley, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Holderness, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Home, E.
Hood, V.
Howe, E.
Hughes, L.
Inglewood, L.
Ironside, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kimball, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Macaulay of Bragar, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.] Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Malmesbury, E.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mersey, V.
Methuen, L.
Middleton, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Nicol, B.
Norrie, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Ogmore, L.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Paul, L.
Pender, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prentice, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Renton, L.
Richard, L.
Richardson, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Sainsbury, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shannon, E.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stallard, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Sudeley, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Terrington, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Whitelaw, V.
Wigoder, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Wise, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

11 Feb 1997 : Column 132

3.46 p.m.

[Amendment No. 4 not moved.]

Clause 7 [Firearms of historic interest]:

Lord Gisborough moved Amendment No. 5:

Page 3, line 13, leave out ("1919") and insert ("1946").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, it is the Government's intention to exempt "heritage" pistols, and a government amendment provided for that. One aspect of that amendment continues to give concern; namely, the early limit on the date that allows exemption from prohibition, 1st January 1919. In the original draft of an amendment to deal with heritage pistols, the Heritage Arms Rescue Committee proposed that for the purpose of the relevant section a heritage firearm should mean "any short firearm of a type which was first made before 31st December 1918". I stress the phrase, "first made". By thus defining a heritage pistol, the

11 Feb 1997 : Column 133

difficulty that may arise in proving that a particular pistol, although clearly of pre-1919 design, was actually made prior to that date would be avoided.

The government amendment, by limiting heritage status to pistols manufactured before 1919, invites the very difficulty that the committee sought to avoid. Moreover, given that Britain--uninvaded during two world wars and long a major auction centre for historic arms--is a repository of fine European heritage arms made after 1919, the wording will inevitably cause valuable and interesting pieces to be destroyed or permanently exiled overseas.

While having recognisable significance as the end of the Great War, 1919 has less relevance to the manufacture of pistols. Variations of the Mauser of the type carried by Churchill in the Sudan, for example, continued to be manufactured up to and during the Second World War, as were variations of the Luger. The historical significance of both types is reflected in their financial values. A naval Luger pistol, for example, normally realises £1,400 to £1,800 at auction; with accessories the same pistol will fetch about £3,000.

Estimates prepared by the Heritage Arms Rescue Committee based upon confidential information from the auction houses, the trade and the Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association suggest that the aggregated value of privately held heritage pistols in this country is as high as £31 million. Many of the pistols that go to make up that figure will have been made after 1919. Thus, were the terminus that defines "heritage pistols" to be brought forward, the cost of compensating owners for their losses must be reduced.

For "trophies of war", which would be exempted from prohibition, the Government propose in Clause 6 a 1st January 1946 terminus following amendment in Committee. With that date having been accepted by the Government in a context analogous to that of heritage pistols, I propose a simple but brief amendment to Clause 7 which would bring the two termini into accord. Since the Heritage Arms Rescue Committee proposes that possession of heritage pistols will be authorised by a firearm certificate with no ammunition permitted, there would be no measurable risk to public safety. That is a point which the Government appear to have accepted. I beg to move.

Lord Renton: My Lords, perhaps I may set at rest my noble friend's mind. The previous clause, Clause 6, deals with trophies of war. It refers to any firearm,

"which was acquired as a trophy of war before 1 January 1946".

My noble friend desires the identical date for a firearm of historic interest. I should have thought that most of the firearms he might have in mind were trophies of war, manufactured before January 1946. Therefore, frankly, those concerned will not suffer much if they find that they cannot treat firearms of historic interest made before 1946 as being covered by the Bill. I should have thought that there was no need for the amendment.

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