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Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 59:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 44 [Firearm certificates relating to firearms used for target shooting]:
Baroness Blatch moved Amendments Nos. 60 to 63:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 45 [Approved rifle clubs]:
Baroness Blatch moved Amendments Nos. 64 and 65:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 46 [Coterminous pistol club licences and rifle club approvals]:
Baroness Blatch moved Amendments Nos. 66 and 67:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 49 [Financial provisions]:
Clause 50 [Interpretation and supplementary provisions]:
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 69:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch moved Amendment No. 70:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment would allow the use of fax transmissions when dealers are issuing notices of transactions to customers and the police. Since some faxes do not have a system of proof of transmission, the amendment only allows the use of fax where a record is kept.
The present system is out of line with modern business practice in that it only allows dealers to use registered post or the recorded delivery service when issuing notices for transactions. That is not really appropriate nowadays, when electronic communication is such a vital part of business. The present system is also an enormous inconvenience to dealers and much less efficient than the use of a fax. For example, dealers in rural areas may have to travel miles to a post office which accepts recorded delivery. Registered post costs £3 plus postage, or £3.26 in all. But dealers normally use recorded delivery, which costs 60p plus post or 86p per notice. Dealers must also give notice to the chief officer of police who issued the certificate and so may well have to send half a dozen or more notices per day, which is unduly bureaucratic.
The use of a fax could have operational advantages because it would mean that the police would receive instant information.
For example, the use of a fax notification might well have been significant in the recent Humphrey case in which a gun was sent to an address other than that on the certificate and the police learnt of it too late.
There has been a suggestion that it is difficult adequately to define what constitutes a fax. However, BT has confirmed that "facsimile telecommunications transmission" is a proper definition. The amendment is important to the gun trade. It will save enormous cost and bureaucracy, so I commend it to your Lordships and hope that my noble friend can accept it. I beg to move.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, my noble friend's amendment would mean that people who are required to submit notifications to the police about transactions in firearms and ammunition would be able to do so by facsimile transmission rather than by registered post or recorded delivery. Or they could if they wished continue to use these postal methods as now.
Clauses 34 and 35 of this Bill would extend and rationalise the requirement upon shooters to notify sales, transfers and disposals of firearms and ammunition to the police. There are also important requirements upon firearms dealers, set out in Sections 42 and 43 of the Firearms Act 1968, relating to notifying the police of sales and transfers.
It would clearly be of some practical value to firearms dealers, and would also be of practical value to some owners, if these notifications could be done by fax. This
The Government have some sympathy with this proposition. Fax messages are entirely acceptable in this day and age for routine correspondence.
But these firearms notifications do not fall into the category of routine correspondence. Failing to send them as the law requires represents a criminal offence. I fear I must report that there are important obstacles in the way of changing the law in the way my noble friend suggests.
A fax message is, of course, a copy of an original document. I regret to say that it would be quite possible for an unscrupulous individual to change the original document. They might, for instance, blank out part of the document before sending it by fax. The police, who received it, would then be quite unaware of the alteration.
The fact that a person has kept a record of having sent a particular fax would not, in law, be proof that he had sent it. Certainly there might be proof that he had sent a fax. But the important issue is what that fax contained, and there would be no proof of that.
Fax transmissions--unlike recorded delivery and registered post--are not what the law regards as provable documents. It is in the interests both of public safety--which benefits from the proper recording of firearm transactions--and of firearm owners themselves that these communications should be made in provable form, even though this might involve some minor inconvenience.
There are substantial problems standing in the way of what otherwise is a sensible idea put forward by my noble friend. I hope he will accept the difficulties and will not press his amendment.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, I have no intention of pressing the amendment. Inspiration has reached me from another part of your Lordships' House to the effect that police can acknowledge these documents by fax. I assume that to be so. However, it is not what the amendment was aimed at. In view of what my noble friend said, I cannot say that I am happy to withdraw the amendment; I withdraw it reluctantly.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 71:
Page 22, line 33, after ("authority") insert ("or the Corporation of the City of London").
Page 23, line 6, after ("for") insert ("the grant or renewal of").
Page 23, line 7, leave out ("a").
Page 23, line 10, after ("applicant") insert ("or, as the case may be, renewed").
Page 23, line 15, leave out subsection (2).
Page 24, line 46, leave out ("as a rifle or miniature rifle club").
Page 24, line 48, at end insert--
("(3) Any approval of a rifle or miniature rifle club or muzzle-loading pistol club under section 15 of the 1988 Act which is in force immediately before the commencement of this section shall have effect as if it were an approval under section 15 of the 1988 Act as substituted by subsection (1) above.").
Page 25, line 4, leave out ("an approved rifle club") and insert ("approved under section 15 above").
Page 25, line 12, leave out ("as a rifle club") and insert ("under section 15 above").
Page 26, line 19, at end insert ("or
(b) an air pistol to which section 1 of the 1968 Act applies and which is designed to fire .22 or smaller diameter ammunition;").
Page 26, line 36, at end insert--
("(7) References in the Firearms Acts 1968 to 1997 to "registered post" or "recorded delivery service" shall include facsimile telecommunications transmission of which a record is kept.").
After Clause 50, insert the following new clause--
(".--(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations make such transitional and consequential provisions and such savings as he considers necessary or expedient in preparation for, in connection with, or in consequence of--
(a) the coming into force of any provision of this Act; or
(b) the operation of any enactment repealed or amended by a provision of this Act during any period when the repeal or amendment is not wholly in force.
(2) Regulations under this section may make modifications of any enactment contained in this or in any other Act.
(3) The power to make regulations under subsection (2) above shall be exercisable by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.").
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the proposed new clause would give the Secretary of State power to make regulations in order to cover such transitional and consequential provisions as he considers necessary as a result of the passing of the Bill.
We believe that such a provision is necessary to ensure that the Secretary of State of the day is able to correct any unforeseen anomalies which may arise as a result of the speedy passage of the Bill. I must emphasise that this would be only a safeguarding provision and would only cover unforeseen circumstances arising from the implementation of this Bill as it relates to transitional arrangements.
The chairman of the Delegated Powers and Deregulation Committee has been consulted about this power. He has written to confirm that he can see no reason to object to it as long as the power is confined to transitional arrangements only, which is the effect of my amendment.
It is not an unprecedented measure. For example, under the Friendly Societies Act 1992 and the Reserve Forces Act 1996, regulations made under subsection (2) must be made for the purposes authorised by subsection (1). That is in connection with or in consequence of provisions already in the Act or repealed by the Act. They cannot introduce areas of policy not addressed by the Act, nor can they be used to amend enactments unrelated to the Act. I beg to move.
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