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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, the Minister only answered one half of the question;
indeed, she only gave one half of the equation in answer. She told us how many additional prison places will be available, but she did not comment upon or give any proper governmental response to the considered judgment of the Director General of the Prison Service who said that despite the number of extra places we would still run out of accommodation. If, as the director general said, we are to have prisoners housed in police cells from March 1997, can the Minister say, on present trends, how long it will be before the current availability of prison cells runs out and what will happen then?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, it is the convention of the House that the Minister replies to two questions. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, asked at least five of which I was conscious--possibly even more. I answered him very specifically as regards the number of planned places that will be in place.
However, in defence of the director general, I have to say that he is right to refer to the tensions in the system. It is true that the courts are dispensing more custodial sentences and it is true to say that accommodation must be provided. I have said that police cells will be used as a positive last resort. I have given all the details of places that are coming on stream.
One of the questions asked by the noble Lord I did not answer, but I am happy to do so now. For 1996-97 £120 million has been provided, £86 million of which will be used to finance an increased prison population; £34 million will be used to improve security. There are plans for a further £692 million over the next three years. We are committed to building six new prisons under the private finance initiative which must, of course, be subject to planning considerations.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, is the Director General of the Prison Service right or wrong?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the Director General of the Prison Service was right to point to the tension. The Director General of the Prison Service does not know that police cells will be needed. What he is saying is that if these places do not come on stream--they are planned to come on stream--there could be a danger that police cells may be needed. That is what he addressed at the conference.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right to draw attention to the conventions of the House, one of which is that members of the Government do not ask questions of members of the Opposition. Is she aware that the director general, the chief official responsible for people in Her Majesty's prisons, has indicated quite clearly that by next month there will be prisoners in police cells? The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, has asked: is he right or is he wrong? That has nothing to do with tensions in the prison system, although, heaven knows, we are all well aware of that. We are asking the simple question: do the
Government accept the judgment of their director general that by next month we shall have prisoners in police cells, thus taking police officers off the streets?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I shall answer the noble Lord's question if he will give me a verbatim account of what the director general said in his speech. He rightly referred to the tensions.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I have read the speech. I have seen the verbatim account.
Noble Lords: Is it in the brief?
Baroness Blatch: No, my Lords, I do not have it in my brief. However, I have read the speech and I know what he said. He is absolutely right to refer to the tension and to the possibility that if the timing slips in any way there is a possibility that police cells will be used. I have made it quite clear it is our policy that should be done as a positive last resort and in an emergency only. As for posing questions to the Opposition, I posed a rhetorical question for the following reason. Noble Lords on the opposite side of this House have consistently brought me to the Dispatch Box to comment on there being too many people in prisons and the fact that more prisoners who have received custodial sentences should be free in the community. I ask a rhetorical question of those people who make that point. They should be telling the country, not me the Minister, which prisoners convicted of crimes they would have walking free in the streets who should be serving custodial sentences.
Lord Dean of Beswick: My Lords, if the figures of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, are correct, is the Minister aware that the numbers and the timescale involved indicate a building programme of 12 prisons with at least the holding capacity of the Strangeways gaol in Manchester? If the Government by any chance win the next election are they committed to a building programme on that scale?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, we are certainly committed to making sure that the public are protected and that we have the prison cells available to house those who commit crimes in the community. The noble Lord was not correct. We shall have 8,600 new places by the turn of the century. We are expecting a rise of about 6,000 or 7,000 in the system at this moment. In addition, about 10,800 places will be needed to accommodate the provisions of the crime Bill which is before the House. The financial memorandum makes it clear that the Government will supply those places. There is a robust building programme, much of which I have referred to in the detail of this Question.
Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, I speak as someone who does not have any responsibility for responding to any of her questions from these Benches. Nevertheless I am involved in the
Probation Service. Is the Minister aware that there is a class of prisoner whom many people think should not be in prison; namely, fine defaulters?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am delighted to respond to the question of the noble Baroness. I have specific responsibility for the Probation Service. It is interesting to note that in the course of a year more people are put in the charge of the Probation Service than serve custodial sentences. Our record on bringing fine defaulters out of prison is quite a remarkable one. In 1995 there were 20,100 fine defaulters in prison; today the figure is below 8,000.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, the question that could rightly be put to this Government is: how has this problem arisen? Is this one of those circumstances where the Government will seek to blame the Opposition? How have the Government allowed a situation to arise where police cells may be filled with prisoners next month? Is the Minister aware that often police cells are already filled by people whom, for their own safety, the police keep in custody overnight and who ought to be in psychiatric establishments, which the Government have closed down?
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I simply do not accept that point. I have not conceded that police cells will be used in anything other than an emergency or as a last resort. We have not used police cells as prison cells since 1995. As regards the other point the noble Baroness made, it is, of course, the case that police cells are used to house people overnight where the police make arrests, where drunken people are admitted, for example drink drivers and people who are incapable of finding their way home. All sorts of people are taken into custody as a result of the police doing their job and addressing crime in the community. If the noble Baroness is present later today, as I suspect she will be as she is an assiduous attender of this House, she will hear that we are making the courts more responsive to those mentally disordered people who commit crimes in the community and who will be better provided for under the provisions of the crime Bill.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for the answers that she has given. Does she not agree that the cost of the prisons that have to be built--that will be about £1 billion--might be better spent on the Probation Service, on rehabilitation and on the prevention of crime? I apologise for asking so many questions.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I am delighted to respond to the single question that the noble Lord has asked. As I have already said, it is important to remember that more people who commit crimes are put in the charge of the Probation Service than serve custodial sentences. There is a lower reconviction rate among people who serve custodial sentences--it is only a marginal figure--than among those who do not. The noble Lord, Lord Hutchinson of Lullington, shakes his head. He ought to look at the facts. About 50 per cent. of those people who
commit crimes and who serve custodial sentences commit further crime within two years of their release. The figure for those who serve community sentences is about 52 or 53 per cent. As I have said, the difference is marginal. What is important is that those people who serve custodial sentences are given the facilities to address their offending behaviour. We are continuing to strengthen the effectiveness of community sentences to make them as effective as possible.Education Bill
3.38 p.m.
The Minister of State, Department for Education and Employment (Lord Henley): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to whom the Education Bill has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order:
Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clauses 2 to 12, Schedule 2, Clauses 13 to 25, Schedule 3, Clauses 26 to 29, Schedule 4, Clauses 30 and 31, Schedule 5, Clauses 32 to 37, Schedule 6, Clauses 38 to 43, Schedule 7, Clauses 44 to 58, Schedule 8, Clauses 59 to 72, Schedules 9 and 10, Clause 73.--(Lord Henley.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
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