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Division No. 1

CONTENTS
Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Barnett, L.
Bath, M.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Bridges, L.
Broadbridge, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Calverley, L.
Carmichael of Kelvingrove, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Crook, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy (de Knayth), B.
David, B.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Diamond, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Fisher of Rednal, B.
Fitt, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gallacher, L.
Geraint, L.
Gerard, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B. [Teller.]
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller.]
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Hampton, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanworth, V.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hoffmann, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Howell, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes, L.
Hylton, L.
Ilchester, E.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Judd, L.
Kennet, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood, L.
Lawrence, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lincoln, Bp.
Listowel, E.
Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, E.
Lockwood, B.
Longford, E.
Lovell-Davis, L.
McCarthy, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNair, L.
McNally, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Molloy, L.
Monckton of Brenchley, V.
Monkswell, L.
Monson, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Ogmore, L.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Oxford, Bp.
Palmer, L.
Paul, L.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peston, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Ritchie of Dundee, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury, L.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Sewel, L.
Shepherd, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Southwark, Bp.
Stallard, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Gosforth, L.
Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thurlow, L.
Thurso, V.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Wallace of Coslany, L.
Walpole, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wharton, B.
White, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Winston, L.
Young of Dartington, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Aldington, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Annaly, L.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Arran, E.
Ashbourne, L.
Attlee, E.
Balfour, E.
Banbury of Southam, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Beloff, L.
Berners, B.
Biddulph, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Burnham, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Clark of Kempston, L.
Cochrane of Cults, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cork and Orrery, E.
Courtown, E.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.] Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Davidson, V.
De Freyne, L.
De Ramsey, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denbigh, E.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Derwent, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erne, E.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gainford, L.
Geddes, L.
Gisborough, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Grimston of Westbury, L.
Haddington, E.
Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L.
Hanson, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardinge of Penshurst, L.
Harmar-Nicholls, L.
Haslam, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hemphill, L.
Henley, L.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hood, V.
Howe, E.
Inglewood, L.
Keyes, L.
Kimball, L.
Kinnoull, E.
Knollys, V.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Lindsay, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
MacFarlane of Bearsden, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.] Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
Malmesbury, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Merrivale, L.
Mersey, V.
Middleton, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Milverton, L.
Minto, E.
Monk Bretton, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Nelson, E.
Newall, L.
Nickson, L.
Norfolk, D.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pike, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prior, L.
Quinton, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Renwick, L.
Romney, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Rowallan, L.
St. Davids, V.
Sandford, L.
Seccombe, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.
Sudeley, L.
Suffolk and Berkshire, E.
Terrington, L.
Teviot, L.
Teynham, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Westbury, L.
Whitelaw, V.
Wilcox, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wise, L.
Young, B.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

18 Feb 1997 : Column 582

5 p.m.

The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Turner of Camden): I call Amendment No. 34. If Amendment No. 34 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment No. 35.

The Earl of Mar and Kellie moved Amendment No. 34:

Page 5, line 27, leave out from ("concurrent") to end of line 29.

The noble Earl said: Amendment No. 34 relates to the backdating of sentences after a period of remand. I move the amendment because the Bill introduces the idea of refusing to backdate on the grounds of wasting time. I bring the amendment before the Committee because

18 Feb 1997 : Column 583

I believe that not to do so would cause injustice and the possibility of unnecessary appeals against that injustice; and because I am interested in reducing friction in prisons and in young offender institutions. That belief is based on having worked in such an institution. I apologise to the Committee for not bringing forward a consequential amendment: the deletion of paragraph (d) of subsection (6).

In the context of deciding how much of the time spent on remand should be credited to the convicted prisoner, the Bill gives the court the power to decide whether the remand credit or "backdater", as it is known in gaol, would be just. That is presumably aimed at offenders who may appear to be slowing up the proceedings in an allegedly unnecessary way. At present, time on remand in England and Wales is automatically credited to the prisoner and, after a lengthy period of remand, may lead to the immediate release, or substantial reduction of time served after conviction.

Time spent on remand as an untried prisoner is probably worse than being on the convicted side. Not only is there a restricted programme for the untried or remand prisoner, leading to boredom, based on the dubious privilege of not having to work, there is also the constant movement of remand prisoners. Their collective anxieties on the remand wing far exceed those on the convicted wings. That is because the outcome of the trial and conviction is already known, is being worked out, or slept through, with a release or lib date on the horizon. The automatic crediting of the remand period is extended to all periods of remand. That contrasts with the Scottish practice where the backdating is decided by the sheriff or High Court judge, often at the prompting of the defence agent. The usual Scottish practice is that when the remand period has been interspersed by a period of bail, only the latter part of the remand forms part of the backdating. There is no requirement to explain the formula used.

As regards the proposed practice for England and Wales, it seems to me that the frequent use of the power in Clause 8(3)(b) could be unjust in a number of ways. First, the fault could lie with dilatory or incompetent lawyers both for the defence and the Crown Prosecution Service. Secondly, the fault could lie with other co-accused and/or their lawyers. Cases with multiple co-accused are notorious for their delays. Thirdly, should a co-accused be on bail, only the accused on remand would be required to serve extra time for time wasting. Fourthly, it might wrongly encourage an accused person to plead guilty and not to opt for trial, which is his right, for fear of being accused of unnecessarily delaying the proceedings. That could also lead to a compound punishment. The accused can already be punished by loss of a discount for a timely plea of guilt.

In its response to the White Paper, the Magistrates' Association states:

"The Association sees great difficulties in assessing how much time on remand is attributable to time wasting, and regards this part of the proposal as unworkable".

18 Feb 1997 : Column 584

That is a view from the sharp end about a new, controversial, onerous and marginally useful task. It may ultimately lead to appeals against this element of sentence. It certainly poses problems of uniformity between courts and 28,000 lay magistrates on the bench as it is based on subjective criteria.

I conclude with the suggestion that the rigorous application of time limits at each stage of the pre-trial process would be more helpful. I cite the scrupulously observed Scottish 110 day rule as an example of an achievable working practice in this respect. The amendment would prevent injustice and subsequent appeals, and reduce whingeing and complaining in prison. I beg to move.

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