---

Baroness Blatch: These amendments seek to remove the requirement that prisoners should earn early release and to substitute automatic awards. All prisoners, whatever their length of sentence, would be entitled to automatic early release at the maximum rate which can be earned under the Bill for good behaviour; that is, 12 days for every two months served.

We have already discussed the principle of automatic release in considering the amendments moved earlier today by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh. The abolition of automatic release before the end of the term of imprisonment that is imposed by the sentencing court is a key objective of the honesty in sentencing proposals. The proposals put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, to reintroduce automatic release would seriously weaken the provisions in the Bill and would undermine that key objective.

18 Feb 1997 : Column 615

The present automatic early release provisions provide no incentive for prisoners to behave well; they merely discourage prisoners from behaving so badly that they are awarded additional days for disciplinary offences. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, will know, with his knowledge of the prison service, that the behaviour has to be pretty serious before days are added to prison sentences. As I say, the level of behaviour that leads to additional days has to be serious. Automatic early release is neither understood, nor supported by the public. That is why we have these proposals in the Bill which provide for prisoners to earn early release. That is why we want the amendments rejected and the government proposals supported.

I know that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has read the Bill carefully. However, I refer him to Clause 10 (5)(b) where he will find a provision for appeals. I think he said there was no way of appealing. However, there will be a system for appeals. If we were to have no measurement whatsoever for automatic release, why not simply shorten a sentence? It seems to me absurd to have a period of a sentence that will not be served which is not related to behaviour or to anything. To shorten a sentence and to allow the supervision period to start earlier is more honest in terms of what the noble Lord seeks.

The way that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and others have described the Prison Service is decidedly uncomplimentary to that service. They have implied that those in the service are incapable of distinguishing good behaviour from bad behaviour and that they are incapable of being objective but are subjective. They have implied that people could become "toadies" and staff could get too friendly with prisoners. At the moment there is a system in operation in prisons which is working well and which involves earning privileges. The staff have to make judgments of their prisoners to decide whether the prisoners will receive the privileges or whether they will lose those privileges.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and my noble friend Lord Carlisle have overestimated the numbers of assessments. We have worked on the basis of an average of about 50 assessments per establishment per week. I apologise for giving an average figure. As someone who was a corporal about 42 years ago, I consider it rather a class ridden statement for the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, to refer to the warder on the landing as a corporal, speaking from his lofty officer class, as it were. I do not know who would comprise the officer class--perhaps the prisoner governor. I find it surprising in today's world to refer to the warder on the landing as the "corporal". However, I now know my place. Prison officers will receive training. They receive training now. They will be introduced to the assessment systems for early release. They will have clear criteria for assessments. Guidelines and training for staff will be available.

The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, said how difficult it is to tell good behaviour from bad behaviour. He gave some examples, rather disparagingly. Let me give examples of good behaviour:

18 Feb 1997 : Column 616

people who obey instructions; those who have an absence of violent or threatening behaviour; people who are not bullies; people who do not intimidate others; those who are not aggressive or do not use offensive language; people who co-operate with staff in the performance of their duties; people who do not interfere with others' property (which is probably a euphemism for stealing); people who comply with mandatory drug-testing provisions; and people who do not use drugs or alcohol. The converse of those examples would represent poor behaviour. With training most prison officers would know the difference between aggressively bad behaviour and good behaviour. They would also know the difference when behaviour is passively good--when the situation is ticking over and the person is neither good nor bad but simply wants to while away the time.

I return to the issue of appeals. The person to whom appeals can be taken against decisions on early release will be prescribed in prison rules. The word "prescribed" will not be in the prison rules. The system and the person to whom the appeal will be made will be prescribed in the prison rules. An internal appellate procedure is envisaged. There will be consultation on that. There is no question of appealing to the same person who made the determination in the first place. We envisage two levels of appeal: one with the governing governor and one with the Prison Service headquarters; and prisoners will also be free, as at present, to refer cases to the prison ombudsman. The Inspector of Prisons is keeping a fairly impressive downward pressure on prisons to ensure that systems in place work well and that they are working in the interests of the welfare of the prisoner.

As regards the idea that everyone will rush off to a tribunal, first, no one will act in isolation. The "corporal"--as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, would have him--on the cells would not be the judge and the jury. The noble Earl, Lord Russell, referred to the one person in isolation acting as judge and jury. That would not be the case. The prison officer looking after the prisoners on the cells, the educators in the education block, the trainers in the training block, those in workshops and the supervisors of gangs working on external projects will all have an input, as indeed they do now; they produce behavioural reports. The probation officer and the voluntary sector working with prisoners in prison are all part of the present system of managing prisoners in prison.

Reference was made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, to no fixed release date. The prisoner will know exactly when he will be released--after serving five-sixths of the sentence if he behaves well. If he does not behave well, he knows that he will serve the whole of the sentence. If the prisoner wishes to be released earlier, that will provide the best possible incentive to behave well.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, said that prisoners need to know the date so that they can prepare for their release. I agree with that. The noble Lord is quite right. The noble Lord's arrangements create a shorter sentence. But prisoners will know their release date.

18 Feb 1997 : Column 617

There is no difference between us. Knowing their release date is very much part of the proposals that we put before the Committee.

My noble friend Lord Carlisle claimed that early release will tear prisons apart. I do not know how he comes to that conclusion. As I have said time and again, prisons already have good experience of assessing prisoners and privileges. The scheme now in place has not torn prisons apart. It has been welcomed by many of the staff and accepted by the prisoners. One of the great spin-offs is that the level of behaviour is being modified as a result.

I say again that I find it deeply depressing that no one is giving the Prison Service the credit for doing the job objectively and well. It performs its assessment task of prison behaviour under the earned privileges scheme well. I pay tribute to that.

Lord Ackner: Before the noble Baroness sits down, can she tell the Committee whether the prison governors were consulted about the wisdom of the proposals? If they were, what were their views?

7.15 p.m.

Baroness Blatch: Yes. I think that the noble and learned Lord knows that they were consulted. The White Paper went to all interested parties. It is no secret that they were concerned about the operation of this proposal. I have already stated in responding to the amendments that we shall consult with them on the details and the implementation of the scheme and how it will work. That will be set out in prison rules, upon which they will also be consulted when those rules are in draft.

Lord Ackner: Will the Minister tell us the substance of their concern? What were the reasons which, according to them, gave rise to their concern?

Baroness Blatch: If the noble and learned Lord will forgive me, we always treat responses to consultation as confidential to us. It will be a matter for the prison officers. If I find that I can talk to the noble and learned Lord about it, I shall certainly do so. But it is no secret that prison officers have expressed concern. Indeed, there are noble Lords in this Committee who know that they have expressed concerns. If I can be more explicit with the noble and learned Lord, I shall. However, he has to understand that it was a response to consultation and we do not make public those responses unless the person who has responded to us allows us to do so.

Lord Harris of Greenwich: On that basis, will the noble Baroness undertake to ask the Prison Governors' Association whether it would agree that a copy of its representations be placed in the Library of the House? If she will give that undertaking, it will reassure many of us.

---