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Baroness Blatch: The noble Lord is well able to do that himself. Perhaps I may say to him that he does not have to come through a third person in order to receive
the consultation response made by the Prison Governors' Association. If the noble Lord wants it, I suggest that he asks the association direct.
Lord Harris of Greenwich: The noble Baroness must not try to evade answering simple, clear, straightforward questions. She made a great issue of saying that the responses are confidential unless the person making the representation to the Home Office agrees to make the position public. The noble Baroness is in the position of having to justify this Bill. It is not for us to do so. The onus of proof is upon her to demonstrate the rightness of the Government's position. In relation to the answer she gave to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, we merely ask that, with the major resources available to her within a great department of state, she asks the prison governors whether they will agree that their representation to the Home Secretary be placed in the Library of this House.
Baroness Blatch: These provisions will not come in for some time. I have made it absolutely clear to the whole House, and to the Committee, that the details of a scheme will be set out in prison rules. In draft form, there will be consultation about the scheme. We shall certainly do that at that time. We are not in a position to do so now. If the noble Lord wants the answer quickly, it will take a postcard and a 26p stamp simply to ask those who responded to the consultation whether they would like to make their response available.
The Home Office does not intend to be a third party for the myriad of people who can come to us. The noble Lord is well able to request that the response to the Home Office be made public.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: At a time when the Minister proposes a major change to the existing situation, the onus is upon her to establish the need for that change. I adopt what the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle, said earlier: if it is working, do not change it. Since 1991 when the Criminal Justice Act was introduced by the noble Baroness's own Government, we have avoided, thank God, serious rioting in the prisons of this country. We have done so for a number of reasons, but largely because the recommendations of the Carlisle Committee were accepted and implemented, and have been shown to work. If they are to be changed and a new and radical system is to be put in place, there is a serious obligation on this Government, before they finally depart, not to leave problems behind for a future government to have to resolve in the way described.
I am intrigued by two pictures that arise from the Minister's response. One is of her as a corporal standing in front of her barrack block telling the squaddies that their free time was to be taken up by punishments that she had invented for them and they were not to be allowed out into the town that night or on any night for a week. I wonder how long she would have retained her authority had she acted in that way. It is a picture that I leave with great regret. The second picture I have in
mind is of the mountains of paper--I know that the noble Baroness wishes to give us more of her experiences.
Baroness Blatch: If I may put the noble Lord out of his misery, it happened quite commonly that as a punishment we were not allowed out into the town. We just took it like boys and girls at the time.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: The point is, was it the noble Baroness the Minister, foreseeing her future, who told those in her squad that they could not go out on the town; or was it some higher authority? That is the picture that I have in my mind.
The second picture is of the mountains of paper that would be engendered by all the agencies within the prison to whom she referred. It is not simply to be the warder on the landing; it is to be the head of the various working stations throughout the prison, presumably the cookhouse or wherever a person has the opportunity of working. All those reports are to come in and be sifted, and presumably discussed, and decisions are to be made by the prescribed person in 60,000 cases every two months, with appeals to follow.
I am not satisfied with the replies that the Minister gave. Although I seek leave to withdraw the amendment, we shall return to it at a later stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Belstead had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 38:
The noble Lord said: This amendment was intended to probe very much the same areas that have been probed at quite considerable length already. I do not seek to move it.
[Amendments Nos. 39 and 40 not moved.]
Lord Belstead moved Amendment No. 41:
The noble Lord said: In moving this amendment I shall also speak to Amendment No. 42.
In each of these amendments "the prescribed person" is the person who may award a prisoner up to 12 days of early release, first in the initial assessment period for attaining the prescribed minimum standard of behaviour, and then in each two-month subsequent assessment period when the person can get six days' early release for "attaining" and six days for "exceeding" the prescribed minimum standard. The effect of these two amendments is to spell out that the prescribed person is to be a governor grade of the Prison Service.
Perhaps I may say just one word of explanation. At the moment, the report which is found in a parole dossier called "The Prison Assessment for the Parole Board"--which consists of 33 boxes each giving room for a brief report--is generally compiled by the
The "PPA" is a vital document for parole assessment purposes; but it is not a decision giving document. It is read by a panel of the Parole Board which either decides on early release or, in cases of seven years and over, recommends to the Home Secretary how he shall decide on release.
But Clause 10 of the Bill is concerned with decision-making. In these two amendments we are talking about the person who will decide whether a prisoner is to be awarded early release days and it is not unreasonable to expect that this decision, taken early on, may set the course of a prisoner's hopes for remission for some time to come. It is also crucial in terms of public confidence that the assessment of behaviour is accurate and fair. It therefore seems very important that a governor grade has a responsibility in the decision-making process in Clause 10 for the award of early release days. I beg to move.
Baroness Blatch: It is quite likely that, in practice, it will be a governor grade who awards early release. But there may well be other people in the prison whom it is appropriate, and on occasion even necessary, to prescribe as being empowered to award early release days.
I am not talking here about the prison officer on the wing who is in regular day-to-day contact with the prisoner. This officer will not be taking the final decision on early release. I am talking about one of the senior members of staff in an establishment, whose job it might be to consider a number of assessments of a prisoner's behaviour over an assessment period and to come to a reasoned judgment as to how many early release days that behaviour has earned. We have the excellent example of the earned privileges scheme already operating in prisons which demonstrates that an assessment procedure can work successfully. That must be an encouraging precedent.
We must not forget the consequences to a prisoner of delay in awarding earned early release, which has a direct effect on his or her release date. There must be adequate machinery in place to provide for staff to be available to make these awards. If, for example, all governor grades were fully occupied in dealing with a protracted operational emergency it could be quite proper for another senior designated member of staff in the establishment to award early release.
The Bill leaves this possibility open, and intentionally so. Before drafting the prison rules which will set out exactly who the prescribed person is to be, there will be full consultation with operational staff to decide whom it is sensible to include. Before that point, we would not want to rule out the possibility of senior members of staff in an establishment who are not of governor grade awarding early release. There are people in the Prison Service who are acting governors at any given time and, for
I take entirely the point that my noble friend makes. It is intended that the decision should be taken by very senior staff indeed. However, we want just an amount of flexibility so that emergencies can be coped with; and/or, as I say, an acting governor grade could, if appropriate, be used.
Page 6, line 19, leave out ("two months") and insert ("one month").
Page 6, line 20, leave out ("the prescribed person") and insert ("a governor grade of the Prison Service").
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