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Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: Before my noble friend sits down, I apologise to her, but might I ask a question? She was good enough, in answer to an earlier point, to answer the question I raised about the number of likely assessments, which she said she thought I had grossly exaggerated. She gave a figure which I am afraid I missed. Is it possible to be told what that figure was?

Baroness Blatch: If one assumes everybody--I have to qualify that with a caveat about completing the work on re-examining longer-term prisoners; there are also those who are on two-month sentences and below who I believe represent about a quarter of the intake and movements in and out of prison in the course of a year. We think that about 26,000 assessments would be required per month. That would average out at about 50 per establishment.

Lord Belstead: It is my intention to withdraw the amendment. I merely say that what arises from the Minister's reply is the need for validation by a governor grade of the different steps that will be taken in seeing that assessments are made in a fair and equitable manner. I very much hope that that point will be taken into account so far as the rules are concerned.

I do apologise; I do not hear as well as I used to and this is an important point. Could the Minister repeat the figure she gave? How many cases are we talking about that will go through the whole prison system of England and Wales over a two-month period for assessment for behaviour?

Baroness Blatch: Again, repeating the caveat, in the absence of, or in advance of, making any changes to the schemes to which we referred earlier today as a result of my remarks on Clause 7, and also remembering that those sentences of two months or less are not included in the scheme, we reckon about 26,000 for each month. That represents about 50 assessments per month as an average for each institution across the whole prison estate.

Lord Belstead: Am I being very dim? I simply do not understand what the Minister is saying. How can 26,000 give rise to a figure of 50?

Baroness Blatch: Fifty assessments per prison institution, but 26,000 per month across the whole estate.

Lord Belstead: So is there some strange difference between a month and two months? The assessments are to be made every two months. I do apologise--I am being

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difficult, I know, but I genuinely want to know. How many assessments are to be made at every two-months' stopping-off point?

Baroness Blatch: Assessments will have to be made every month for some prisoners. At the end of every calendar month it will be necessary to do the assessment for those for whom that will be the end of a two-month period. At the end of each month there will be an assessment. I have therefore worked on the basis of how many assessments will need to be undertaken each month by the prison establishment.

Lord Belstead: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 42 to 45 not moved.]

Baroness Blatch: I rise to make a correction. My noble friend was right to look slightly confused about the figures I gave him earlier. The 26,000 is absolutely right: that is the figure that I assumed for the purpose of answering my noble friend's question. The 50 per prison establishment was a weekly figure.

The Earl of Courtown: I beg to move that the House do now resume. I suggest that the Committee stage begin again not before half past eight.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

House resumed.

Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Bill

7.31 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Baroness Denton of Wakefield): My Lords, I understand that no amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the order of commitment be discharged.

Moved, That the order of commitment be discharged.--(Baroness Denton of Wakefield.)

Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I should like to record the great courtesy the Minister has shown in sending me on 11th February a very full reply to the questions which I asked on an earlier occasion. I have shown that reply to the noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham. We should both like to ponder the terms of it rather than take up the time of your Lordships this evening.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

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Race Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1997

7.32 p.m.

Baroness Denton of Wakefield rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 14th January be approved.

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the Race Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 will introduce provisions broadly in line with those already in force in Great Britain by the enactment of the Race Relations Act 1976. It has been supported in another place.

I believe that it will be helpful to the House if I comment briefly on the order and then say a few words about the detailed provisions. The main purpose of the order is to render unlawful direct and indirect discrimination on the grounds of race. It offers aggrieved individuals full and proper redress through the normal process of civil law. The order also establishes the Commission for Racial Equality for Northern Ireland.

As noble Lords will be aware, the Government are committed to the elimination of all forms of discrimination. In Great Britain legislation exists which outlaws discrimination on the grounds of gender and race. In Northern Ireland, the sex discrimination legislation replicates that of Great Britain. Because of the unique circumstances pertaining, Northern Ireland also has very stringent legislation which outlaws discrimination on the grounds of religious belief or political opinion.

Northern Ireland does not have race relations legislation. In this matter its citizens are not afforded the same protection in law as those of the rest of the United Kingdom. Racial groups account for less than 1 per cent. of the population of Northern Ireland. In the past it was felt that any deprivation suffered by such groups was insufficiently different from that suffered by the indigenous population to warrant specific legislation. Existing social and criminal legislation, together with various administrative policies, was thought to be adequate to address such problems.

Great Britain, however, has obligations not only to its own citizens but internationally through its ratification of the UN International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. The Standing Advisory Commission on Human Rights recommended that race relations legislation should be introduced in Northern Ireland as a matter of urgency.

The Race Relations (Northern Ireland) Order was drafted, following a lengthy period of consultation, to replicate the Great Britain race relations legislation. It is similar to the Great Britain legislation in almost all respects. It establishes a Commission for Racial Equality for Northern Ireland which will help to enforce the legislation and promote equality of opportunity and good relations between people of different racial groups generally. The commission will be the principal source of information and advice on the legislation and will have similar powers to those of the Commission for Racial Equality in Great Britain.

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In line with the Race Relations Act 1976, the order will make racial discrimination unlawful in employment, training and related matters, in education, the provision of goods, facilities and services and in the disposal and management of premises. Individuals who suffer discrimination will be given the right of direct access to the courts and industrial tribunals for legal remedies.

The order will contain provisions enabling the Commission for Racial Equality for Northern Ireland to enter into voluntary, legally binding agreements with individuals or corporate bodies. The introduction of these provisions to the Great Britain legislation was recommended by the Commission for Racial Equality following its second review of the Race Relations Act 1976. It is the Government's intention to amend that Act to include this provision.

The proposed Northern Ireland legislation differs from that of Great Britain in that the Irish traveller community is defined as a racial group for the purposes of the legislation. Their inclusion was the subject of considerable lobbying during the early consultation period on the proposals for a draft order. It was again heavily supported in comments received on the proposed order before your Lordships here today.

The introduction of race relations legislation in Northern Ireland is a demonstration of the Government's commitment to equality for all United Kingdom citizens. To have access to employment, training, education as well as goods and services, regardless of racial background, is a basic human right which should not be denied to the people of Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 14th January be approved.--(Baroness Denton of Wakefield.)

7.38 p.m.

Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I thank the Minister for her exposition. We support this order, although it is 21 years since the Race Relations Act 1976 was passed and it has operated for most of that time in England and Wales.

We welcome the fact that the travelling people, who have particular complaints about discrimination, have been included as a separate minority group.

In addition, this is about the only time that I ever expect to find that another group which is sorely discriminated against will receive the full protection of the law. I refer to Article 26, whereby barristers are specifically given the protection of the law. This is a unique occasion, never to be repeated. Buy now while stocks last!

One of the problems is that anti-discrimination and human rights legislation in Northern Ireland has grown up piecemeal. That may have been inevitable because of history; it is unfortunate in many ways. Our commitment, if the electorate do their duty, is that after the election we shall introduce into domestic legislation the European Convention on Human Rights. That will probably be an occasion on which to look on an overall

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basis at all human rights and anti-discrimination legislation in so far as it relates to Northern Ireland as well as England, Wales and Scotland.

One thing that troubles me slightly is whether governmental functions relating to health, social security and housing are covered at all. I do not expect the Minister to deal fully with that on this occasion because I have not had the opportunity to give her notice; but, if she would be kind enough to write to me, I should be grateful. Other than that, we welcome this order.


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