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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: That is very interesting. The Minister is saying in effect not only that the intention of the amendment is good but that, subject to a number of relatively minor reservations of which I took a note and can certainly answer, the Government may well be prepared to consider a proposal along these lines at a later stage. I am deliberately putting words into the Minister's mouth because I do not believe that her reservations about the wording were particularly serious.
The first one, which relates to the release date and the fact that it is our wish that the release supervision order should be considered within the period of the sentence, is probably the most serious. That, of course, is exactly the kind of issue which is open for discussion.
Baroness Blatch: Let me make it plain once more. I have said several times today that we are not contemplating an earlier release date. The discussions we are having with my noble friends address their concerns about the safety of releasing prisoners, the arrangements for that release, a proper risk assessment at the time of release and the conditions to set down for supervision. We are not talking about the whole supervision period being within the sentence period. I have said this to the noble Lord once; I say it again and I shall continue saying it: we are not contemplating earlier release dates for anybody.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: The Minister indeed said that before and I give the same response as I did then: behind all the amendments we have been proposing has been a principled objection to what is in effect the abolition of parole and the remission system.
Release dates are one of the considerations in that change. Unless either release dates are a matter for discussion or there is the possibility of supervision continuing outside the period of sentence--which, as I said before, comes back to the reviewable sentence proposals of the Butler Committee--we shall not get very far in discussions.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I wish to make it clear, in view of what my noble friend said, that I fully accept that what she said is exactly what she said earlier to me and, I assume, to my noble friend Lord Belstead.
I must also make it clear that, in welcoming the fact--as I hope I did at the end of the discussion on Clause 7--that the Minister is willing to consider the restoration of parole, I should not be taken as in any way accepting the limitations of her argument that there
should be no movement in the release date. I do not think that my noble friend thought for a moment that I was accepting those limitations.Maybe the Government will not agree, but I hope she did not think that I in any way implied that I did not intend to continue to press her to reconsider the matter, although I accept that she made it clear that at the moment the Government's intention to look at this matter was based merely on restoring parole. I would argue that, if the question of the restoration of parole is considered, some area wider than the 84 per cent. should be covered.
Baroness Blatch: I understand what my noble friend is saying. Perhaps I can separate the two matters. In agreeing to consider the matter further for the Report stage, I have made two things very clear. We are not prepared to go down the road of contemplating automatic release; nor do we wish to go down the road of earlier release than that we have been talking about. I shall continue to be pressed by my noble friend because it would be entirely characteristic for him to continue to press me. However, the only way in which this amendment can be accepted within the sentence is that a violent offender would have to be released at the 50 per cent. point of sentence. The whole purpose of the Bill is that we shall not release violent offenders, or indeed anybody, into the community at 50 per cent. of the sentence.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: All of these matters have knock-on effects on each other. If it is indeed the case that we cannot persuade the Government either by force of argument or by force of numbers that they are mistaken, we shall have to look at the other options available to us. One of those options is reviewable sentences and the possibility that supervision might continue after the end of the sentence. That cannot be wholly ruled out.
The Minister challenged me on the definition of violence. There are plenty of definitions of violent offenders, as she well knows. I am sure that in discussion we can reach an acceptable definition, just as there are acceptable definitions of sex offences.
The noble Baroness challenged me on the question of whether I meant four years now under the present situation or four years then. I thought that I had made it clear in the example I gave that I meant the four and six years rather than the four years and two years, eight months. But, again, that is a matter for negotiation. I do not feel strongly about it. I think she will realise that there will have to be amendments at Report stage which will seek to redefine the definition of serious offences in terms of the length of the sentences.
The noble Baroness's fourth challenge was that I had omitted to say that the courts should give reasons for extended supervision periods. I readily agree with that. Of course they would have to do so. I cannot imagine that it would have to be on the face of the Bill, but, if necessary, a further amendment could be introduced to that effect. However, I shall consider whether it should be on the face of the Bill.
I emphasise again that this amendment would merely give a discretion to the courts to award a longer supervision period. Since we all agree that that would be desirable, I cannot believe that it is beyond the wit of man or woman to reach a conclusion about a suitable wording to achieve it. In hope of that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 22 [Continuity of sentencing]:
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow moved Amendment No. 64:
The noble Lord said: If, in moving this amendment, I were to say that it was my intention to divide the Committee, I believe that I should be listened to with a degree of derision. Therefore, I can assure the Committee that that is not my intention. But that does not mean that there is not a serious point behind the amendment, which is to try to meet what the Government say are their intentions.
We now come to a clause which attempts to meet the contention of the Government that one can move to real time sentencing without in fact increasing the period spent in prison by those whom the courts sentence to imprisonment. To achieve that end, it is the intention of the Government, as clearly set out in this clause, that when this part of the Bill comes into effect courts should impose sentences shorter than they are imposing at the moment. The Home Secretary will then be able to say that the time spent in prison equates with the length of the sentence passed--not by bringing the time spent in prison up to meet the length of the sentence passed but by reducing the length of the sentence passed to equate with the time spent in prison.
This was first spelt out in the White Paper, where the Government said in terms that that was their intention. The White Paper states that it is expected that judges will,
As I said, to achieve that end the Government have said in that section that in future when coming to sentence the court will be required to ask, "Now, had I been sitting in 1997 in the early months of that year before the passing of this Act, what is the sentence that I would have passed? And, having decided in the year 2002 what is the sentence I would have passed in 1997, I must, since this Bill is now in effect, reduce that sentence by two-thirds."
If one is dealing with cases in which a sentence is about four years, then I accept that, by saying the sentence should be 66 per cent. of the sentence which would be passed at the moment, the Government achieve their aim that the sentences passed for the longer-term offenders are likely to accord with the period they at present spend in prison. They will equate the 66 per cent. sentence to the 66 per cent. of the existing sentence that those who do not achieve parole serve, and whether or not parole is achievable is undefinable in advance.
But what of those who at the moment come out at the 50 per cent. point because their sentences are shorter than four years? There, the Government have said that the sentences should be reduced by 66 per cent. to take account of the fact that, rather than coming out at the 50 per cent. point of their sentence, they are in future apparently to come out at the 84 per cent. point. But, having done those mathematics, the fact remains--as the Minister agreed earlier today--nevertheless the effect is to increase all prison sentences for those sentenced to up to four years (which, as she said, is the vast majority of offenders) by 11 per cent. Therefore the purpose of this amendment--which says that for sentences up to four years, the court should give a sentence of 60 per cent. of the sentence it would otherwise have given--is to try to meet that problem. If it gave 60 per cent. rather than 66 per cent. of the sentence it would have given, then the period in prison, if the person received the full advantages of early release, would equate to the 50 per cent. of the sentence that is served at the moment.
Of course that is nonsense, and I accept that it is nonsense. That is why I said I do not propose to press the amendment to a Division. I wish to make the point that, if the Government say that their intention is that sentences should not be increased, then they should be saying that courts must give 60 per cent. of the sentence they would pass rather than 66 per cent. I hope that by raising this issue I shall persuade the Government at least to consider the problems they may be causing by the increased pressure which will be brought to bear on our prisons.
Perhaps I may make one final point. I was interested to hear and accept totally the point made by my noble friend, though I was surprised when she said that the predictions of the future prison population had taken account of the fact that the Bill's effect would increase by 10 per cent. the time spent in prison by those sentenced to up to four years. I say that because the White Paper said a key assumption was that, when imposing a sentence other than the mandatory minimum sentences, courts would take full account of the changes. Therefore it was not intended that there should be a general increase in the time served in prison.
It would be reasonable to assume from that point that the Government's proposals were neutral. I believed that that was the intention until it was pointed out to the Home Secretary that what was said in the White Paper would in fact lead to a reduction in sentences rather than the reverse, as a result of which the proposal for 66 per cent. was included in the Bill. Of course I accept
At this late hour I am encouraged by one thought. If one looks at the end of that same chapter on resources, paragraph 13.7 deals with how these matters might be implemented. It states:
Should, regrettably, another political party be in government at that stage, the provisions may not see the light of day. Should, as I desperately hope, my own party be in power at that stage, I trust that by 1999 it will have been persuaded that the provisions introduced in 1992 were so sensible that it would be unwise to alter them after all.
Page 16, line 19, leave out from ("to") to end of line 21 and insert--
("(a) two-thirds of any term of four years or more which, at that time, it would have held to be appropriate if the offence had been so committed; or
(b) 60 per cent of any term of less than four years which, at that time, it would have held to be appropriate if the offence had been so committed.").
"take into account, when passing sentence, the abolition of parole and the changes in early release arrangements".
"the Government does not expect these proposals to result in a general increase in the period of time offenders serve in prison".
"The remaining proposals for honesty in sentencing and mandatory minimum sentences for domestic burglars could then be implemented [subject to the building programme] two years later--in October 1999".
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