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Lord Lucas: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord about some of the benefits of organic farming. Indeed, it has many good environmental spin-offs. But I still do not see that as a reason for subsidising it so extensively as in Europe. Research has shown that the levels of aid that we provide cover the costs of conversion, and that seems to us to be sufficient.
Baroness Nicol: My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the environmental benefits of organic farming are considerable? Given that the United Kingdom is reputedly in pursuit of sustainable development of all kinds, including sustainable farming, is it not time to rethink the attitude shown in his first Answer to the noble Earl, Lord Clanwilliam? It seems to me unfair that the subsidies to what is now called conventional farming should be so much more than those now given to organic farming. Will he accept that the benefits environmentally and to the health of individuals are great enough to justify another look at this question?
Lord Lucas: My Lords, the noble Baroness misunderstands the present situation. All the subsidies which are available for ordinary conventional farmers are available for organic farmers. We have designed the way in which we deal with set-aside, for instance, so that those converting to organic farms can benefit from the regulations. We have designed our environmental schemes so that they are much easier and much less costly for organic farmers to comply with than those on conventional farms. So there are many additional benefits already available to organic farmers. In our view, looking at the present situation, they are sufficient.
Lord Moyne: My Lords, is it not mad to subsidise set-aside, which, after all, produces mainly weeds, and not to subsidise organic farming?
Lord Lucas: My Lords, as I said, we subsidise organic farming substantially; we do not see the need to subsidise it more.
Lord Carter: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the vast majority of farmers regard organic farming--to use an old phrase--as mystery and magic? Until recently the same attitude permeated the Ministry of Agriculture, ADAS and most of the agricultural research establishments. Is the Minister further aware that organic farming, low-input farming and environmentally friendly farming--what might be termed generically as alternative farming--is much more demanding, both technically and intellectually, than conventional, high-input farming? There is a shortage of people in research who could help farmers to convert if a large number wished to do so. I do not believe that a telephone helpline will be enough.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I do not disagree with the noble Lord that a lot of mystery surrounds conversion to organic farming. One reason why people may not have taken advantage of the help available to them is that they are fearful of the risks involved. That is why we launched the organic conversion information service. It involves free visits and free consultation as well as the telephone helpline. A lot of research is directed at exactly what are the costs of conversion and how best to go about it. Indeed, one of the experiments at ADAS, Terrington, is showing that conversion of a pure arable farm with good farmland can yield significant profits over conventional agriculture and may be worth doing without subsidy.
Lord Mackie of Benshie: My Lords, is the Minister aware that, while organic farming can produce food that many people may wish to buy, without conventional farming and the input of synthetically produced nitrogen the world would starve?
Lord Lucas: My Lords, that is taking the Question a little wide. I am not an organic vegetable eater and I am content to eat the products of conventional farming rather than pay double the price for the organic alternative.
The Earl of Clanwilliam: My Lords, perhaps the Minister will bring to the attention of his right honourable friend in the Ministry the fact that there is an imbalance of trade of £180 million a year to this country. That amount is being wasted by the failure of the Government to support the organic movement properly.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I do not take such a segmented view of free trade. If there is a deficit in organic farming then the farmers who are not farming organically are producing other crops which are either generating a deficit in that regard or producing a surplus elsewhere. We do not have to have an equality in the balance of payments in every individual product or type of farming.
Scottish Select Committees
2.52 p.m.
Baroness Elles asked the Leader of the House:
- Whether he is satisfied with the operation of Scottish Select Committees in scrutinising Scottish public Bills.
The Lord Privy Seal (Viscount Cranborne): My Lords, yes.
Baroness Elles: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that detailed reply. Does he agree that the new procedure which is applicable so far to three Scottish public Bills has been successful? It enabled direct links to be created between selected Members of your Lordships' House and members in Scotland who are concerned with the details of the Bills as they arise. Will my noble friend further agree that this form of practical devolution is infinitely to be preferred both as to price and as to efficiency rather than some form of proposed parliamentary devolution?
Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, I agree with the suggestion of my noble friend. I was heartened by the support of the Opposition parties, after understandable caution, which is only right and proper, when this experiment was first tried. I agree that it has been extremely successful in making sure that people who were particularly interested in the proposed legislation were given a chance to give evidence in Scotland. In parallel with the initiatives of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, it brought Parliament closer to the Scottish people. The experiment has proved good value in the sense that the costs have varied between £7,000 and £11,000. I agree also that the experiment ensured that it is one Parliament that has been brought closer to the people rather than breaking up the United Kingdom with several.
Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, I sat on two of those committees. Does the noble Viscount agree that the knowledge acquired by the members of those committees probably saved parliamentary time at later stages in the Bill? The Deer (Scotland) Bill and the Transfer of Crofting Estates (Scotland) Bill were specialised subjects and the knowledge acquired of the subjects probably enabled Members of the Committee and the House to concentrate their amendments and thereby take up less parliamentary time at later stages.
Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, I agree with the implication of the noble Lady's question that better prepared legislation is likely to enter into a virtuous circle in the legislative process. The more that consultation can take place, the better. I am sure that the Select Committees played their part in that, just as other government initiatives--for example, the increased publication of Bills drafted in advance--have helped in the same direction, though the steps so far have been only modest ones.
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, despite much trouble being taken by
a large number of groups and individuals to give evidence on the three Bills that have so far been scrutinised in that way, there has been scant reporting by the Scottish media? Is there any way that the House itself could make it clearer to the public when and where the special Scottish Select Committees are meeting and what they are about? Perhaps also reports could be published afterwards containing the gist of the business that was contracted.
Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, I am distressed to hear from my noble friend that the coverage in the Scottish press was rather exiguous. I equally deplore the lack of coverage of proceedings in your Lordships' House we so often receive in the national press. In that respect I hope that the appointment of a new senior information officer--I am glad to say it was approved by all sides of the House--will begin to make some impact on the amount of press coverage that takes place. Nonetheless, I am reliably informed that in relation to the Transfer of Crofting Estates (Scotland) Bill there was considerable coverage on Scottish television and in the press. Specific interests were served, in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Macaulay of Bragar, who I understood was able to inform the inhabitants of the Isle of Skye of the contents of the Bill in Gaelic.
Lord Richard: My Lords, is the Leader of the House aware that we regard this experiment as having been a modest success? We would be content for it to continue, provided it is done on a pragmatic, practical basis and in respect of one Bill at a time. However, if the Leader of the House really believes that going up to Inverness to look at the deer and going to Skye in order to consult the crofters is any substitute for the legitimate aspirations for devolution of the Scottish people, frankly, he is crazy.
Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, knows as well as I do that I never claimed more than a modest ambition when I suggested this device to your Lordships. He knows that that ambition, in his opinion as well as mine, has been satisfied. We will continue to choose, through the usual channels and by mutual agreement as is the way of this House, which Bills would be appropriate for that procedure. I am tempted to go down the road the noble Lord asks me to go down. I merely remind him that one of the difficulties that I suspect his party and the leader of his party will suffer from perennially on this subject as well as others is that they fail--I use the phrase used by Mr. Blair in the John Smith Lecture advisedly--to get stuck into the thickets of detail and that is where the devil always lies in their proposals.
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