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Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, the Minister rightly says that this is a very important Bill. When it becomes law it will need extremely careful scrutiny in practice. We have to bear in mind that it allows an effective amnesty in criminal proceedings. A decommissioned weapon of whatever seriousness or gravity, however many crimes it was used to commit, will be destroyed; evidence potentially available from it is ruled inadmissible in criminal proceedings; and forensic scientific tests are specifically prohibited.

I asked one or two questions at Second Reading on 30th January and the Minister was courteous enough, as always, to give me a very full reply in her letter of 11th February. That reply was placed in the Library and has also been provided to the noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham. The Minister confirms that a weapon decommissioned in Northern Ireland may not be available for use in criminal proceedings in the rest of the United Kingdom. She confirms that in practice all decommissioned weapons will be destroyed, and says,

"so it will not be possible [with a decommissioned weapon] to tell where and when, if ever",

that weapon was used for criminal purposes. The evidence which might have been available will not be available in civil proceedings. I have confirmation from her that there is a question at least about the position of co-accused where there is more than one defendant in criminal proceedings.

I gave the Minister notice of a question I wish to put about the circumstances relating to Lance Bombardier Restorick, killed recently for no other offence than doing his duty. The fact is that he was killed with a single shot from a high-velocity weapon unlawfully introduced into Northern Ireland from the United States. The further fact we need to bear in mind on this occasion is that if that weapon is handed in and decommissioned in Northern Ireland, it is likely to be the only probitive evidence against the murderer of Lance Bombardier Restorick. The effect of the Bill becoming part of our law is that that

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murder will go unprosecuted and the murderer unconvicted. That is why I have trespassed on your Lordships' patience for a moment or two to indicate the gravity of what we are doing.

Lord Holme of Cheltenham: My Lords, I shall be equally brief. I subscribe to the question which the noble Lord, Lord Williams, asked rather than repeat it. At the time we last discussed this issue the noble Baroness was kind enough to take issues about the North Report. I would like to trespass on her time and that of the House to raise a question on the report and on parades. I am sure she agrees that we have 65 very dangerous days ahead of us between now and the putative date of the British general election. We have a deteriorating security situation in Northern Ireland.

I am sure that the Minister also agrees that it is the overwhelming duty of the Government to do everything they can to ensure stability at a difficult and precarious time. When we last discussed this matter three weeks' ago, the Government said that they needed to consult further on the issue of Dr. North's report on parades. I offered from these Benches--I believe my noble colleague did the same--that there would be every possible assistance for the Government from the Opposition parties and that they would be available for consultation to allow conclusions from the North recommendations to be brought forward so that they could be implemented during this year's marching season.

The Liberal Democrats have not had any approach from the Government. I do not know whether the Labour Party has been approached for consultation. I would very much like to hear what progress the Government have made on urgently reviewing Dr. North's recommendations. I do not really apologise for raising these issues because we have so little chance to discuss general matters relating to Northern Ireland as regards decommissioning and a peaceful settlement. We read in the newspapers that there is a proposal to rush into the closing days of this Parliament a proposal for a Northern Ireland Grand Committee. That may or may not be a good thing--there are powerful arguments in favour of it--but I cannot believe that it is a good thing to do at this point. What sort of signal will it give in Northern Ireland to the minority community? Has it been discussed at all with the Irish Government? And is it the right way to proceed?

On both issues the noble Baroness will be well aware that I do not point a finger at the Northern Ireland Office which labours unceasingly in the vineyard of peace and political settlement. However, I do point a finger at the Whips of the party opposite who seem extremely concerned to secure the continuing support of the Unionists at a time when their first consideration ought to be the maintenance of peaceful progress in Northern Ireland.

Lord Alderdice: My Lords, it must be very unusual indeed for a Bill to come to this House from another place virtually uncontested yet with everyone fairly sure that the measure will not be implemented even though

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it has been passed, particularly on a matter which is so extraordinary--the disarmament of organisations within the United Kingdom.

The reason is not that it is just a practical matter: the passing of the Bill is not just a question of setting up a structure for decommissioning. It is a political matter. It has come to the fore because of a deep absence of trust, not just occasioned by 25 years of violence but also because when the peace process began the terms were set out and the most crucial term of all was acceptance of the principle of consent. When the republicans made clear that they would not accept that principle there was a search for other evidence of bone fides and the matter of decommissioning was turned to. It is a matter of some regret that that became such a leitmotiv, such a significant issue, rather than the issue of consent which is so fundamental.

However, it is to be welcomed that Mr. John Bruton, the Taoiseach of the Irish Republic, has made it very clear that he and his government will demand and require from republicans that they cease their violence for good and that he has emphasised the centrality of the principle of consent. Surely, it must also be welcomed that yesterday in Belfast Mr. Bertie Ahern, the leader of Fianna Fail and of the opposition in Dublin, also made it clear that the republican movement must come to the mountain of democracy--not the other way round. I hope that we can depend not only on the surety of Her Majesty's current Government, but on anyone else who may fill that position later this year, to ensure that there will be an absolute and steady requirement that the republicans accommodate themselves to the principles of democracy, and not any alternative.

These matters apply to us all. The rule of democracy is not something that can be applied to some, but not to others. When we see not only republicans returning to violence, but also those who gather outside the Catholic church at Harryville every Saturday evening now almost making it traditional to shout abuse and to intimidate Catholic worshippers as they proceed to worship their God; and when we see the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party proclaiming that he insists that Orangemen will walk down a particularly contentious route, not waiting for the advice of the police, despite all the difficulties of last year and the year before--we continue to remember that picture of him wagging his finger at the RUC--I trust that the current Government and any future government will insist that the rule of law is maintained and that the rights of all are protected. Without that, there is no future for our community or for the cause of peace.

I trust that no matter of political expediency or difficulty will press any government, current or otherwise, here or in the Irish Republic, to do anything but hold to those principles not only on the matter of the republicans, but also with regard to the Orangemen who have in their own way turned to the politics of political intimidation and street action.

Lord Fitt: My Lords, the Bill has now almost passed through both Houses with the minimum of difficulty, yet it contains all the elements that could cause great

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controversy among Members of this House, another place, and the people of Northern Ireland. The reason that it has not resulted in controversy is that no one in Ireland, north or south of the border--no one in any of the communities of Northern Ireland--believes that there is any possibility of it coming into force.

On Second Reading I said that there would be great opposition to the announcement that had been made--it has been reinforced today by the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Mostyn--that if weapons are handed in for decommissioning, no forensic tests will take place on them to determine whether those guns have been used to carry out murders. I cannot believe that that is right.

Both the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Williams, mentioned the killing of the young Lance Bombadier only recently. The noble Lord questioned whether, if the weapon that killed that young man was handed in for decommissioning, it could be used to further a prosecution against the person who fired it. That is only one case among the hundreds of unsolved murders in Northern Ireland which have been carried out by both sides--by nationalist terrorists and unionist terrorists. The relatives are still alive. They will bitterly resent any legislation which states that if a gun is handed in, no forensic tests will be carried out on it. That gun might ultimately be the only evidence that could be used in court to convict a murderer, but that evidence will not be available. That means that scores of murderers in Northern Ireland will be told by this legislation, "If you hand in your gun, you will never be tried for the brutal and vile murders you have carried out." I cannot believe that that is right.

At the moment it seems from her remarks that the Minister is living in hope, a hope perhaps destined to die in despair. Since the so-called peace talks began in Northern Ireland, the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, will be able to confirm that day after day, hour after hour, there has been controversy about decommissioning. Absolutely no agreement that would bring about decommissioning can be reached at the forum between the existing political parties. I do not think that any of them believes that it will ever come about. However, I reiterate what I said then and I fully support what has been said today by the noble Lord, Lord Williams. The Government will be taking a very retrograde step if they give an indication that the people who have used guns for murders and handed them in for decommissioning will never be charged with murder. That cannot be correct in Northern Ireland terms.

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