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Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his courtesy in ensuring that I had an early sight of the Statement. Obviously it was not that early and I had a brief canter through it rather than a careful analysis. However, I have managed to gain some overall impressions.
I shall deal first with what the Statement does not contain. There is no mention of the importance of public transport in the context of sustainability, in which the Government claim to believe. That is extremely important because once one adds in the need to provide public transport in order to create a sustainable future, much of the costing and the obsession with cost which the Statement contains must be altered. Nor does the Statement give any indication as to the importance which the Government place upon public transport in general and London Underground in particular as a contribution to London as a "liveable" world city.
Another impression is of the vagueness of the plans, despite references to a "package". Perhaps it is natural that there is little mention of the price that the Government seek, because they have not thought about any of the other details as regards what they will do en route to privatisation. However, an assurance that the asset will not be sold off at a price well below the network's true worth would have been valuable, considering that it is one of the many so-called scare stories which have been around for some time. Today's Evening Standard suggests that the network could carry a price tag of about £2 billion. It will be interesting to hear the Minister's comments on that.
Furthermore, there is a lack of clarity about the timing of the project. The suggestion of the publication of a White Paper in the summer may sound ridiculous--it does to me--but it points to a fairly leisurely attitude towards implementation. That may be sensible, but it raises the question of what will happen to the current investment programme during the next two years while London Underground's ultimate fate is being determined in detail. The Evening Standard suggests that the privatisation process will not be completed until 2001. That sounds about right, bearing in mind that we start on the White Paper next summer, if for this Government next summer ever arrives.
The Statement does not indicate whether in the Government's view privatisation means less or more investment within the current London Underground plan period, which also lasts until 2001. What will happen to that investment programme in the meantime? It is impossible not to conclude that Conservative Ministers may believe that even the promise of privatisation will bring them votes. I doubt whether many people would agree with that assessment.
The Minister referred, in the self-congratulatory mood to which we have become accustomed, to the virtues of rail privatisation in general. I suggest that among dispassionate observers the verdict on that would be "too early to tell". However, the verdict among many rail users is that the present situation is more or less catastrophic. In particular, in the general context of the privatisation of the railways, there never has been any indication as to how the privatised rail companies can satisfy the need not merely to attract commercially viable passengers and freight but also to play their part in ensuring that increasing percentages of passengers and freight are moved by public transport in the interests of a more sustainable economy. I believed that the Government shared that ambition.
As regards London Underground, broadly safeguarding the present levels of service is not enough. Those with a major interest in London's future health and well-being--for instance, London First, representatives of the City and the president of the CBI--all want London to benefit from a well-run, expanding public transport system which will increase accessibility, create an attractive environment and ensure the movement of goods and employees. They fear that otherwise they will be overtaken by other capitals where those benefits are provided. The president of the CBI has specifically called for a combined public and private investment programme, whether or not London Underground remains in the public sector. It may be that he agrees that proposals to privatise the Underground are irrelevant to the desperate need to maintain and modernise London's vital transport system.
We should like to see a fresh initiative to bring in capital investment to provide the nation's capital city with a modern metro, meeting the needs of the business community, Londoners and the millions of tourists who visit this city each year. We need to follow the example of every other modern industrial country. We must free London Underground from the dead hand of the Treasury under the cloak of the PSBR. London
Underground should be able to raise capital in the market by issuing bonds in partnership with the private sector.It is certain that a steady and stable funding system is essential.
Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, why should I not read? The Minister read his Statement. Why should I not read what I have to say as well?
Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone: Because it is boring.
Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, it may be boring but I am standing here, I have the Floor and unless somebody gets up and makes me sit down, I shall continue to hold the Floor.
It is certain that a steady and stable funding system is essential to the future of London Transport and the London Underground--the very point that London Transport made to the Transport Committee hearing which dealt with London Underground's finances and investment on 19th February. No doubt the Government will respond to that point when they meet the committee tomorrow. That seems to me to be another aspect of the curious timing of this Statement. I await with great interest to see how the Minister will respond to the points made both by myself and by other speakers in the debate.
Viscount Goschen: My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, for her far from boring intervention. I should like to pick up a number of points which they made.
First, there was an attack on railway privatisation from both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. Remarks were made about independent commentators and where they feel that the success or otherwise of railway privatisation has led us. I believe that there is now a firm recognition across the country that rail privatisation has worked. We have seen massively increased investment; we have seen better and more services; we have seen new and imaginative service levels; we have seen statutory protection. All that is added to a steadily reducing cost to the taxpayer. Whatever one's political beliefs, that must be good news, and I believe that where there is good news, it should be welcomed.
The thread of that goes directly to the views of the parties opposite about London Underground. It is clear, and most people will realise, that something major must be done about London Underground to bring it up to modern standards. Considerable quantities of fresh investment are needed. It is equally clear that government are not going to be in a position to provide all that investment. Therefore, let us consider proposals put forward by the parties opposite. I heard none this afternoon.
The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, complained that I had come to the House with a Statement clearing up what the Government intend to do about London Underground--and yet only a few weeks ago I was asked by the noble Lord himself and by others in the Chamber what the Government's response was and what we intended to do. It is entirely appropriate that I should come to this House and make a Statement first to Parliament. Ministers are criticised regularly by the Opposition for not doing that.
The noble Lord complained that my Statement was too long and then again that it was not long enough. I have attempted to bring all the detail that we have to the House at an early stage because it is important that Parliament should know about this.
The simple fact is that this package has taken a number of people by surprise because of the additional safeguards that it contains--the 10 commitments that people did not anticipate--and there is surprise at the bold claims that we should be able to promote a new and modernised London Underground within five years of privatisation.
I was asked about value and the subsidy. On the amount of ongoing subsidy, it is too early to say before we have decided on the model. But we shall ensure that the taxpayer gets good value for his contribution and that the Tube passenger benefits from a better service. That has happened in relation to rail privatisation, and there is no reason why it should not happen as regards tube privatisation in just the same way.
The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, asked me to say a few more words about the recycling point. We shall require the private sector to modernise the Underground's infrastructure as soon as possible, as I have outlined. That will entail a given amount of government subsidy, the amount to be tested in the market. The subsidy will be recycled from privatisation proceeds which we receive. If, as we expect, proceeds are left over, a majority will go to additional investment in London Underground or for other transport investment.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, what does a majority mean?
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