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Lord Simon of Glaisdale: I am obliged to the Minister.

Baroness Blatch: The noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon, referred also to the disclosure of reports to parents of juveniles. As I said, I shall look at that.

The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, referred to an offender's reluctance to disclose information. It is still in the offender's interest to co-operate; that is the whole purpose. The dialogue between the probation officer, who is the report writer for the purposes of putting the PSR before the court, and co-operation by the individual is extremely important. Frankness on the part of the report

27 Feb 1997 : Column 1308

writer is also important. It is primarily inaccuracies that will be corrected; for example, misleading versions of a relationship, to which I have already referred.

Perhaps I may refer to a point raised by the noble Earl in relation to subsection (3), and refer him to subsection (5), which states:

"No information obtained by virtue of subsection (2)(b) above shall be used or disclosed otherwise than for the purpose of--(a) determining whether representations as to matters contained in the report need to be made to the court; or (b) making such representations to the court".

The purposes for which the information can be used therefore will be properly prescribed in law.

5.15 p.m.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: Before the Minister sits down, perhaps I may raise this matter. The noble Baroness said that there would be a saving of time and cost. That turns the practical position upside down. Where is the inquiry to end?

A sentencer receives a report from an independent person--the person who writes the report; he is not a defence advocate; he or she is neither working for nor instructed by the defendant; they are there to give an objective report to the court. If that objective report is to be handed in every instance to the Crown Prosecution Service dealing with the personal circumstances of the individual, what is the Crown Prosecution Service then supposed to do? The person in the CPS is unlikely to know anything about the background of the defendant and therefore the police will have to be brought in to investigate what the independent writer of the report has discovered. All of that will then be the subject of some sort of hearing, some dispute, which goes back to the judge to determine.

The whole thing escalates further and further. All that one can reasonably require, within reasonable cost and practicality--a matter which might appeal to the Minister--is to have the assistance of an independent report without having to take the nitty-gritty even further. That is in addition to the down-side of the preparation of that report, to which I have already referred.

Baroness Blatch: I have to ask the noble Lord what good reason he believes there is for the sentencer to see the report, for the defence to see the report and not for the prosecution to see the report. The noble Lord is vocal on many of these subjects; but if, as he is suggesting, something may be so wrong as to need to be challenged by the police in order for it to be resolved, is he really saying that reports that could contain that degree of inaccuracy--that degree of challengeable information--should be seen only by the sentencer and the defence and kept secret from the prosecution? There is no case whatever for that.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: I apologise to the Minister for being vocal; I thought that is what we were here for.

27 Feb 1997 : Column 1309

The prosecutor has no business becoming involved in the sentencing process. The Government always fail to understand that the public must retain confidence in the criminal justice system; they have to feel that it is fair and impartial. There is a place for the prosecution and a place for the defence.

Pre-sentence reports are not held in great secrecy, delivered under plain envelope to the defence; they are freely thrown around the bench and reference is made to them throughout by the defence counsel. But the prosecutor is not interested. He knows instinctively that it is not a matter about which he should become vocal.

Baroness Blatch: The prosecutor represents the public interest in these affairs, and it is as much in the interests of the prosecution and the public that the sentencer does not proceed on the basis of possibly inaccurate information. Given that there is no one to challenge it other than the prosecution, there can be no reason for keeping the information from the prosecution.

I know the noble Lord is aware that not infrequently one finds the defence using PSR information in mitigation to the sentencer, influencing the sentencer when it comes to awarding a sentence. All I am saying is that, for the sake of openness, it must be right that the prosecution as well as the defence is privy to that information.

The Earl of Mar and Kellie: I thank the Minister for what she has said. She is right. The procurator fiscal in Scotland is always given the report. But I have never known a procurator fiscal to comment on or challenge what is in a report. Therefore, it is subsection (5)(b) that I find difficult.

5.20 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 102) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 122; Not-Contents, 57.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS
Abinger, L.
Addison, V.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Balfour, E.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Beloff, L.
Berners, B.
Biddulph, L.
Birdwood, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Braine of Wheatley, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Cadman, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carnock, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chelmsford, V.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Clinton, L.
Coleridge, L.
Courtown, E.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.] Crickhowell, L.
Cross, V.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denbigh, E.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donegall, M.
Dundee, E.
Ellenborough, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Gainford, L.
Geddes, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Hardinge of Penshurst, L.
Harlech, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Holderness, L.
HolmPatrick, L.
Hood, V.
Hooper, B.
Inglewood, L.
Keyes, L.
Kilmarnock, L.
Liverpool, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacFarlane of Bearsden, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.] Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Marlesford, L.
Massereene and Ferrard, V.
Merrivale, L.
Mersey, V.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mottistone, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Munster, E.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Nelson, E.
Newall, L.
Norrie, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pender, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rankeillour, L.
Renwick, L.
Romney, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Rowallan, L.
St. Davids, V.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.
Sudeley, L.
Suffolk and Berkshire, E.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Teviot, L.
Teynham, L.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Westbury, L.
Wharton, B.
Whitelaw, V.
Wilcox, B.
Wise, L.
Wynford, L.
Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Borrie, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Calverley, L.
Carlisle, E.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cocks of Hartcliffe, L.
Desai, L.
Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Fitt, L.
Geraint, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L. [Teller.]
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Haskel, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hughes, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton, L.
Hylton-Foster, B.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Longford, E.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McNally, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Peston, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
Stallard, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L. [Teller.]
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
White, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

27 Feb 1997 : Column 1311

5.29 p.m.

Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank moved Amendment No. 102A:

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