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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: As the Government know, I have not been as resistant to electronic tagging as some other noble Lords. My worries about electronic tagging for adults have been restricted largely to my concern about the cavalier attitude of the Government to the research that they themselves have commissioned into the effects of electronic tagging and their willingness to commit themselves to legislation before the results of that research are available. But my acceptance of electronic tagging for adults under certain circumstances arises from an overriding desire to have as wide a range of alternatives to prison as possible.
I am bound to say that I do not believe that that can be extended to children as is proposed here. I am sure that the noble Earl is right that the low self-esteem of offenders under the age of 16 would be enormously reduced if they had to carry electronic tags. For example, what would be the position of a girl whose school uniform required her to wear a skirt rather than trousers so therefore the tag was visible to everyone? What would be the position of a child who had to wear an electronic tag at school and participate in games and physical education? The mind boggles at the degree of humiliation to which children may be subjected by their fellows if they were carrying electronic tags. I cannot see the justification for it, particularly as the research evidence even in relation to adults is not yet available.
Earl Russell: My noble friend Lord Mar and Kellie has referred to cases where the young person feels a sense of disgrace and low self-esteem as a result of wearing a tag. Those cases happen. But the problem may be even worse if they do not. It is not only the noble Baroness who travels on buses. A couple of weeks ago I opened my local paper and read a letter from our PPC for the Regents Park constituency. She described an occasion when she was travelling on a bus and found two rather violently-spoken young men next to her. They were exchanging boasts about the gravity of their crimes and the severity of the sentences that they had earned. The more severe the sentence, the greater the prestige. Some cases will fit my noble friend's description; others will fit this. In either case I do not see that anything is gained.
I very much share the concern of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, about the indifference of the Home Office to research. It was only one week ago
today that the Home Secretary commissioned extended trials--an extension of pre-existing trials--of the procedure for tagging. He might have waited for that. The Home Secretary's attitude to research increasingly reminds me of Sydney Smith's attitude to reviewing. He said that he never read a book before reviewing it because it prejudiced a man so.I have here the report on the first instalment of those trials entitled Curfew orders with electronic monitoring (Home Office Research Study 163). To give it the most favourable gloss possible, it is not an entirely conclusive report. It also leads me to think again about the point made by my noble friend about the difficulty of using tagging as an exclusive way of dealing with the situation.
The economies proposed for tagging of course depend quite heavily on the idea that it can be used exclusively. I quote here from page 31 of the Home Office research report which states:
- "The staff were keen on their work and took pride in it. They were rather surprised at the amount and type of help they had to give to offenders at times which had nothing to do with electronic monitoring itself; this was a probation service task as they saw it, but if no probation order was made alongside the curfew order probation officers had nothing to do with it".
That seems to suggest that if tagging was going to work it would work in conjunction with probation. That may be worth further thought, but it rather gets rid of the argument of immediate economy.
The argument of costs, too, should be causing us some concern. The average cost per type of order is probation orders £2,425, community service orders £1,773 and tagging orders £2,295. That of course is all right if you consider it per order, but the trouble is that you cannot do it that way because courts are imposing so few tagging orders.
We seem to have a problem here, as we have had in earlier stages of the Bill, of courts being asked to impose orders which they do not want to impose. That is part of a much wider problem in the relationship between the Government and all the professions--the Government wishing to get everyone to exercise their professional judgment as the Government wish. It is not that simple.
Of course, if courts are not going to impose tagging orders in large numbers, then their alleged virtues will be very much diminished. The more I listen to any debate on tagging, the more I am struck by the fact that everyone who does not know anything about it is strongly enthusiastic about it and, with the single exception of the Home Office, everyone who does know anything about it is extremely doubtful. This may be an idea which has something to show us in future, but I do not believe that its time has yet come.
6 p.m.
Baroness Blatch: The point the noble Earl made about young people boasting about their crime and the severity of the punishment made me wonder what
message he intended to give. It seemed to me that it was a case for the admonition: no punishment on low punishment.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Perhaps I may suggest an answer to that, if the noble Earl, Lord Russell, will allow me. If they are boasting about their crime, are they not going to boast about their electronic tags as well?
Baroness Blatch: They may well boast about their electronic tags, but what they may not boast about is the hours that they will have their liberty restricted from going about their wrongdoing in the evenings or playing with their friends. It is the period of restriction that is the punishment. That is the whole purpose of the curfew order. There are many young people on our streets out of control. Not only do I believe that it will be helpful to keep them in one place at one time; it helps also with some adjustment in the family. There are some parents who will be jolly relieved to know where their children are, even if it is an enforced period, because there are some parents who just put up their hands and say, "I just can't control him or her". I believe that this will be a pilot scheme worth piloting for that alone.
Earl Russell: Perhaps I may interrupt the Minister. I think this underlines the point made earlier by my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford about the need to restore confidence in the criminal justice system. There is a lot of truth in the remark made by the first Earl of Strafford:
- "A prince that loses the force and example of his punishment, loses with all the greatest part of his dominion".
Baroness Blatch: The point I am making almost makes the point that the noble Earl is just trying to make: the young people riding on buses and out in the streets among the public boasting about their crime and their punishment will not be boasting so much when they are tethered at home and curfewed at home by electronic tagging. It will at least ensure a period, determined by the courts, when they will need to be at home and not out on the streets boasting to anyone. It is that punishment that I hope the Committee will agree is at least worth trying in the pilot schemes.
The noble Earl made another point about reading the report. He referred to it as not being conclusive. It is not conclusive because the pilot scheme has not yet been concluded.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: Exactly!
Baroness Blatch: Not only is it not conclusive, that report refers to the early part of the pilot. It is well advanced now. I believe that the subsequent report will be positive. There are many positive parts of that report, too.
The measures in the clause will operate initially on a trial basis. For instance, in our existing curfew pilot areas--greater Manchester, Norfolk and Berkshire--the present pilot schemes for offenders aged 16 and over which have been operating there are working extremely well. The research report which we published on
30th December shows that curfew orders are becoming very effective. The research found that the tagging equipment consistently performed effectively and that 75 per cent. of offenders were tagged successfully. Tagging therefore looks likely to compare well with other community sentences in terms of completion and cost.We now believe that there is also a role for curfew orders for young offenders enforced through electronic monitoring. They will be a means of keeping them at home, off the streets and away from shopping centres, clubs and other places where they may get into trouble. By keeping young people out of harm's way we believe that the curfew order should be able to help prevent young offenders from re-offending and help protect the public.
That links in with the point that the noble Earl made. It is about restoring public confidence in the judicial system, which is at a very low ebb at the moment. Young people are seen hanging around shopping centres and street corners. I am reminded of the words of my right honourable friend John Patten when he was Secretary of State for Education. He talked about street corner to prison cell--that awful downward cycle, when there is no early intervention with children. This is at least one opportunity to bring family and child together, enforced though that may be. There may well be positive aspects of that. We would at least like to see whether it will work.
Courts already have a power to impose a night restriction order on a young offender as part of a supervision order--the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie--but those night restriction orders are more limited in scope than the curfew order. They can be imposed only as part of a supervision order and can operate only during the evening and the night. What is more, they are difficult to enforce. A curfew order is more flexible. Because it is monitored electronically, it is properly and strictly enforced. Its virtue so far has been that any movement of the individual who is subject to electronic tagging outside of the area is detected immediately and dealt with.
That is what gives the courts confidence that the order that they will make will be carried out. The curfew order will apply in the same way as it does for offenders over 16, but with modifications to reflect the younger age of the offenders. First, the order will be for a maximum length of three months and not six months; secondly, we have provided that in the case of offenders under the age of 16 one of the penalties for a breach should be an attendance centre order, which again I believe will answer one of the noble Earl's concerns which is one which I share--I believe that human contact is an important part of this.
Under existing powers, the courts may deal with the breach of curfew order by re-sentencing the offender for the original offence or varying or continuing the order and imposing a fine or community service order. As a community service order is available for those 16 and over only, we have filled that gap by giving courts the power to impose an attendance centre order on breach where the offender is under 16.
Thirdly, as with the proposals for community sentences in the Bill, there will be no need for the offender to consent to the order. However, we will require the courts to obtain and to consider, before making a curfew order, information about the family circumstances and the effect that it will have on the family. That procedure should enable the courts to apply the new order appropriately. As with older offenders, a curfew order will be available for any offence as well as on breach of a release supervision order, as provided for in Clause 14.
I was asked whether or not it is irresponsible to extend tagging to juveniles before the trials finish in March next year and before the scheme is fully assessed. We do not believe that it is. I need to make the powers available to the courts so that pilot trials running in parallel with the main trials can take place. Given that they will be pilot schemes, decisions will not be taken about whether to make the sentence available nationally until there has been a fuller evaluation of the effectiveness and value for money of electronically monitored curfew orders. However, we need to have the powers in place if we are to be in a position to obtain the necessary information from appropriate pilot schemes. The noble Earl, Lord Mar, referred to the report that is already in the public domain.
I was also asked whether or not the tag will be worn as a badge of honour. Again, there will always be some young offenders who see a trip to court as something to boast about. However, that is not a reason for refusing to proceed with any action. Even if some young offenders wear their tags with pride they will still have to comply with the curfew orders imposed on them. What is important is the restriction of their liberty not to roam the streets and not to hang around the areas where they have been getting up to no good. We believe that the scheme is at least worth trying.
The night restriction order can be imposed as a condition of a supervision order, which is a longstanding provision. A night restriction order cannot be combined with electronic monitoring. A curfew order is separate from a supervision order, but the court can impose both a curfew and a supervision order. It must be for the court to determine which is appropriate. If the court regards close supervision as important it can impose such an order to run in conjunction with a curfew order. I share the point which the noble Earl made and I believe that we have covered it for the purpose of the pilot scheme.
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