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Baroness Blatch: I should be most grateful if the noble Earl would kindly complete the overcrowding details of Doncaster prison. My information is that that prison is not overcrowded. Therefore, I am slightly alarmed at the story that he has just given us. However, if the picture that he has just outlined is a true one, I share the noble Earl's horror. Of course that is very much a management issue for the prison. Nevertheless, I should like to look into the specific case raised by the noble Earl. I should certainly be interested to know his source for the cause being one of overcrowding.

The Criminal Justice Act 1991 makes the necessary provision for replacing prison remands for 15 and 16 year-old boys with court-ordered remands to local authority accommodation with a security requirement. It also provides for the court to direct that 15 and 16 year-old girls be held in secure local authority accommodation. Such secure remands would be subject to strict criteria so as to ensure that they are only used in appropriate cases where it is important to protect the

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public from such juveniles. But that can only realistically happen when there is enough local authority secure accommodation available to replace the existing prison custody. In addition, the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 provides for the provision to be widened to include 12 to 14 year-olds.

With that aim, the Government are funding a 170-place expansion programme to provide more accommodation of this sort and, by the end of this building programme, we will have spent over £30 million. The first places came on stream at the end of 1995 and the vast majority should be in place by summer of this year. However, the Government would be failing in their public duty, and in their priority to protect the public, if they ended prison remands without making workable alternatives for the secure containment of such youngsters. As the noble Earl has already said, the fact of the matter is that the number of 15 and 16 year-old remands is increasing--270 15 and 16 year-old boys were remanded to prison custody on 30th June 1996, as compared to 211 on the same date in 1995. The latest figures show around 300 juveniles remanded to prison custody.

We have no single explanation for this increase. It may be that the courts are taking greater account than before of the need to protect the public; it may even be something else, for example, demographic reasons. Decisions about the use of remands to prison custody in individual cases are, of course, matters for the courts. But whatever the reasons for these increases it will be clear to the Committee that careful consideration must be given to the implications of this rising remand population for the implementation of the 1991 Act provisions. I can assure the Committee that we are doing just that, and that it is our intention to report to Parliament at the earliest possible opportunity on the implications for implementation. I believe I now know Members of this Chamber well and I know that they will not be reticent in making sure that pressure is maintained on the Government to give an explanation and progress reports.

The new clause proposed by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, would require the Secretary of State to lay before Parliament within three months of this Act being passed a report assessing progress towards implementing Sections 60 and 61 of the 1991 Act, and specifying an implementation day for these provisions. I understand the thinking behind the proposed new clause and its aim and I am sympathetic to that; indeed, I am extremely sympathetic. I know that there is a good deal of interest in these provisions within this Chamber and in another place. It is right that there should be. It is also right that Parliament should be informed of progress in moving towards implementation. However, I do not think that the new clause as proposed is either necessary or desirable. Certainly the achievement of the policy aim is desirable.

The amendment is technically flawed and on that ground alone it is difficult to invite the Committee to accept it today. The two sections to which the new clause refers are already in force, but as modified by Section 62 of the 1991 Act. Section 62 has the effect of preserving the use of prison remands for 15 and

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16 year-old boys until such time as an order made under Section 62(1) of the 1991 Act is laid. It does not therefore make sense to require a report on progress in implementing Sections 60 and 61.

What is more important, I believe that it would be quite wrong to include a provision in this Bill at this time which would in effect place a statutory requirement on a government of whatever complexion to provide Parliament with a report on progress and a specific implementation date for these provisions within what would be the first few weeks of a new Parliament. I remind the Committee that it would occur about six weeks after the new Parliament assembled, because if nothing untoward prevents this Bill from receiving Royal Assent that will occur during the month of March. Therefore, if one accepts this amendment, the clock starts ticking from that point. The measure would not affect the present situation to any significant or worthwhile extent. In addition, little of value would be achieved by requiring any Secretary of State to identify a specific implementation date for these provisions until the necessary accommodation is available. As I said, it would be difficult to give a specific implementation date until the additional expenditure--over and above the money that has been made available for the 170 places--has been approved to provide the additional accommodation that is needed to accommodate what appears at the moment to be an inexorable rise of young people remanded to custody and has been included in new spending programmes. The noble Lord will know much about new spending programmes because it is a current topic in his party. The public would not be properly served and nor would they be protected by bringing these provisions into effect before there is available sufficient secure accommodation. At this moment it is difficult to be specific about when these additional places--that is, additional to the 170 places--can be brought on stream.

I have said that I am sympathetic to the amendment. I am happy to put on record an assurance that a full report on progress should and will be made to Parliament. Today I have outlined progress in the planned building programme and explained the difficulties that we face in keeping pace with the rising demand for secure places for remanded juveniles. I have also indicated that we are looking closely at the situation and that we intend to report further to Parliament at the earliest opportunity.

I hope that with that assurance the noble Lord will not press the amendment. I say to those who have sympathy for this provision--I refer also to the noble Lord, Lord Hylton--that we are as concerned as anyone that 15 or 16 year-olds remanded to prison should be kept in a separate wing as far as is practicable. If that cannot be accommodated, efforts should be made to ensure that they are kept as separate as possible from adult convicted prisoners. Special attention should be paid to their regime while they are in prison to ensure that their education and training needs are not neglected. We are concerned about that and we shall continue to examine ways to ensure those needs are met.

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With the assurance that we shall produce a progress report and that attempts will be made to provide a timescale for when this policy will be implemented--the noble Lord referred to my saying in January of last year that that remains the policy aim; namely, that these young people will not be remanded to prison but rather to properly secure homes of local authorities--

Earl Russell: The noble Baroness asked me my source for the incident at Doncaster. It was from the Howard League report Banged Up, Beaten Up, Cutting Up which we debated on 10th January last year. However, I was not making any specific statement about overcrowding at Doncaster. I said the problem was generally one of overcrowding. I stand by that, but I made no specific statement about overcrowding at Doncaster.

Lord Acton: I was not quite clear about something that the Minister said. We have been told about these 170 fresh local authority places for some years now. I think it has been three years. Is the Minister's department pressing for more places, and if so how many?

6.45 p.m.

Baroness Blatch: The 170 places are almost all provided. They will all be in place later this year. I have already said that about 300 young people are remanded at this moment. It is a technical difficulty that we have at the moment. Those 170 places will be available, but at the moment the court remands to the local authority, and the local authority finds the places in secure accommodation. We want to give the courts the power to remand to custody direct from court. Until we can give some guarantee to the court that the provision will be there, it is difficult technically to give the courts that power because we would do so knowing there is a deficit at the moment of about 130 places. It is important that we ensure there is not a continuing rising curve of these young offenders and that we have some understanding of the eventual figure so that when we give this power to the courts we do so knowing the places will be available.

Viscount Tenby: I must take the noble Baroness up on this because it is a matter of great importance. How is it proposed that that power will be given to the courts? The courts desperately need to be able to send these people straight into secure local accommodation.

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