---

The Lord Bishop of Ripon: I should like to speak to Amendments Nos. 154 and 156, which are included in this group.

The noble Lord, Lord Morris of Castle Morris, made the point about the importance of including those with experience of the maintained sector. These two amendments make it clear that the maintained sector includes voluntary schools and grant-maintained schools having foundation governors. As I said at Second

3 Mar 1997 : Column 1610

Reading, about a third of all schools are Church schools. It is a very substantial provision to the maintained sector.

The amendments mirror those for the Funding Agency for Schools. Amendment No. 154 requires the appointment of persons who appear to the Secretary of State to have experience of, and to have shown capacity in, the provision of education in these areas. Amendment No. 156 requires the Secretary of State to consult particular bodies. In relation to the Funding Agency for Schools, we are glad that the Government have observed the provisions of the earlier Bill. We have indeed been consulted about these matters. In the last round of appointments for the Funding Agency for Schools one of the nominations put forward by the Churches was accepted by the Government.

The argument is that in relation to the new body the same provision should apply. It is not necessarily the case that the Secretary of State would have to accept any outcome of a consultation. His own freedom to appoint whom he wishes would not be constrained by any names put to him, but Amendment No. 154 would require that not only the maintained sector but also the voluntary sector is taken account of.

Lord Burnham: Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Castle Morris, whether it is not the case, in the light of Amendment No. 154, that the wording of Clause 37(4)(c)is not so wide that the amendment is quite unnecessary, particularly with reference to the last part of Clause 37(4)(c),

"or the practice of any profession"?

Lord Morris of Castle Morris: I have not the remotest idea. I would need time to have a look at that and I shall, of course, do so. Perhaps the Minister may be able to enlighten me on what I think.

Lord Henley: I doubt it very much indeed. Perhaps I may remind the noble Lord, Lord Morris, that we are not debating the size of the authority on this occasion. In the Bill we say that something of the size of between eight and 13 is appropriate. The noble Lord and my noble friend Lord Butterfield proposed different figures of between 12 and 18. As I think I said to the noble Lord, Lord Dormand, in relation to other numbers that came up on another occasion on an earlier day, getting these figures right is not a precise science; it has to be a matter of judgment. Like the noble Lord, Lord Morris, I would not want to go back to the great Schools Council. The noble Lord tells me that the figure for that was 120; I thought it was around 100. Anyway, it was a big figure and something that would not necessarily be appropriate on these occasions.

What we want is a small strategic body that can make the appropriate decisions, but then, by means of a committee structure, can look at specialist matters--obviously it covers a whole range of different things, covering NCVQ and SCAA--and through its committee structure bring in a great many other people who will cover other matters. All those members of committees can include members who are not members of the authority. It will be up to the authority itself to consider

3 Mar 1997 : Column 1611

whom it should bring on to its specialist committees and at that stage it might be more appropriate to go down a different route.

As I said, during the passage of the 1993 Act--I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Walton, who quoted my words from the 1993 Act; but I shall quote myself on this occasion--when we discussed similar amendments relating to the membership of SCAA:

"If the Secretary of State were to concede on representation in one case, however worthy, it would be very difficult to draw the line on other requests from organisations and groups which have a stake in what happens in our schools".

I do not believe I could have put it better then and I shall repeat it now. Once one concedes one group for the authority, one then has to accept the argument for a great many others. I do not intend to go down the route of reserving places on QCA for any groups other than those set out in the three paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of Clause 37(4): persons who have experience of education, persons who have experience in the provision of training and persons who have experience of industrial, commercial or financial matters. I believe that is appropriate.

To go further and say, "You have to have teacher trainers, LEAs, teacher unions, parents and pupils", would mean that the small businesses would demand separate representation; so would the professions, universities and trade unions. I could go on and we would have a very long list indeed. The noble Lord, Lord Morris, would be the first to admit that. We do not believe that that would be an appropriate body to deal with these matters. We believe that a body of roughly that size would be more appropriate.

I do not know whether it would be making a political point and it might be that I have picked up things in a newspaper that were not necessarily true. But I noticed a comment to the effect that the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition, should he get into government, was considering a smaller, inner Cabinet of a smaller and tighter size, on the basis that that was more appropriate to make decisions. We believe that a size of roughly eight to 13 would be more appropriate.

I accept that it is different from the SQA, the Scottish equivalent. But that is a very different body. First and foremost it is an awarding body rather than a regulatory body. It cannot be compared with the QCA. I accept that it is smaller than ACCAC. But then, ACCAC is not a new body. It is a reconstitution of the existing Curriculum and Assessment Authority in Wales. The existing members, chairman and chief executive will continue to serve. Consequently, it was not felt appropriate to reconsider the size of its board. No doubt my right honourable friend, if he wanted to reconstitute it at some point, would consider the advantages or disadvantages of a new body. As I said, we consider that the QCA is a new body. We consulted fairly widely on that, and decided, for the reasons that I have already set down, that a figure of about eight to 13 was about right.

I do not know whether the noble Lord wants to continue further on that question. My understanding was that we had a degree of support from the noble Lord's friends in another place. Perhaps he can tell me if that

3 Mar 1997 : Column 1612

is not so. I believe that the appropriate size would be eight to 13. I do not believe that it would be appropriate to start listing certain groups at certain stages. As I said earlier, once one begins to open the door, one opens it for a great many other equally deserving cases, all of whom need representation. If one wants to go down that road, the committee route is appropriate for the authority itself. I believe that what we propose is the better way round. I hope therefore that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

10 p.m.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: Before the Minister sits down perhaps I can raise one point with him. I listened carefully to what he said. Is it his feeling that the sub-committee route would be the best way of bringing on board more specific considerations--for instance, those people with experience and expertise in nursery and special education?

Lord Henley: I do not believe that one should reserve a specific seat on the authority for nursery or special educational needs. I would hope that the authority, which will recognise that it must consider these matters, just as it must consider a whole host of people ranging from teacher trainers, LEAs, teacher unions and so forth--I ran through a long list of them--will be able to ensure that appropriate people with the appropriate expertise deal with the appropriate subjects.

Baroness David: My name is attached to Amendments Nos. 155A and 155B, along with that of the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas. Amendment No. 155B covers both. We want people to be represented on the committee,

"who appear to ... have experience of, and to have shown capacity in, the provision of special education and nursery education, or to have held, and to have shown capacity in, any position carrying responsibility for the provision of special education and nursery education".

It is wise to remember that the code of practice for special educational needs affects all phases of education and has a direct impact on the national curriculum and its assessment. It is vital therefore that persons with specific special educational experience are represented on the authorities.

I listened to what the Minister said in regard to the size of the authority. But will there be guidance as to the people who should be consulted when the authorities are created? I hope that some of the people who have been discussed in this short debate will necessarily be heard, because it is extremely important.

My name is also attached to Amendment No. 186F because Clause 37 refers to the QNCA--or QCA as it is for England--and Clause 43 refers to the same authority for Wales. The amendment does for Wales that which I have been saying in relation to England. I hope therefore that the Minister can say whether or not there will be guidance as to who should be included on the sub-committees so that the various interests are represented.

---