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Lord Henley: In relation to the membership of the authority, I cannot go any further than I have. It would
not be right to open the stable door for one specific group or another. It will be a matter for the authority itself to consider who to appoint on its committees, the authority having been appointed under the appropriate procedures using all the Nolan rules.I can assure the noble Baroness that we will be advertising the posts this month, in March, and the appointments will be made some time in May. We have already appointed a chief executive. We have started the process in relation to the chairman and are fully consulting the noble Baroness's honourable friends in another place, as is appropriate for such appointments at this stage in Parliament. Thereafter it is a matter for the authority to consider who it should appoint. Guidance per se would not be appropriate. The Secretary of State will be able to keep a close eye on the appointments and may make appointments to committees in his or her name, if it is felt that representations are not working properly.
The simple point I am making, going back to the authority rather than to its committees, is that it should not be a matter for listing a whole range of people on the authority who have to be represented. As even the noble Lord, Lord Morris, accepts, that might take us back to the good old days of the schools' council.
Baroness Warnock: Before the Minister sits down perhaps I can say that I feel sure it is right for the committee to be small in number and not representative. It reminds me of the days of the committee on the education of the handicapped when, looking round on the first day, somebody said, "There is nobody here from the remedial gymnasts". If one starts giving places to the remedial gymnasts, one will have to give places to heaven knows who else.
I should like an assurance from the Minister that the names from the people who are consulted--the sub-committee members--will be published. One of the merits of sub-committees is that if the public know who the members are they can lobby them. I would just ask for that assurance when the committee is set up.
Lord Henley: I am very grateful for what the noble Baroness has said. I may say I shall always remember the remedial gymnasts, and we might reserve a place for them. But to be serious, it is a perfectly valid point. I will take advice on that, but I presume it will be a matter for the public record. If I am mistaken I will certainly let the noble Baroness know.
Lord Morris of Castle Morris: I was interested in what the noble Lord had to say. He mentioned that the leader of my party might possibly want a small group around him. I heard that rumour: I read about it somewhere but it did not make much of an impression on me. He will of course make his own dispositions if and when he is in a position to do so. I do not suppose that any of us will be considered for high office in that particular small kitchen cabinet.
I must say that I was not particularly satisfied with the answers given by the noble Lord the Minister on this occasion. I would have awarded no more than a grudging Beta plus. He relied too much on the
floodgate argument: if we allow one in, the rest would be wanting one too. That argument, in a situation of this kind, is not a very convincing one. The underlying question, which has not been properly addressed by the Government in my view, is: what is the optimum, the best size for this body, given what it has to do?If it has been decided that it will work through a whole raft of committees and there will be a committee on maintained schools, another on SEN and another on further education, that will be an easy solution and a bureaucrat's paradise. However, I do not think it is the kind of thing that will lead to efficient activity on the part of an organisation like the QCA. That authority is going to have to cover a vast range, and to work through committees seems too bureaucratic and detailed, as far as I am concerned. I would think it would make much better sense to work through an authority itself, which could take its own decisions at its own meetings without having to bounce things back and forth, to get minutes and reports and have referrals back from one committee to another.
It will still have to deal with maintained schools, with SEN and further qualifications--that huge area about which there will be so much detailed discussion. I feel still that it is going to be too small with its present number of eight to 13 to work effectively. On the other hand, I do not like the proliferation of committees, because the line management structure will be massive and slow. That having been said, I do not want to press this to a Division at the moment but I may very well wish to come back to the matter in greater detail at Report stage.
Finally, the Minister said something, if I understood him correctly, about the discussion in another place. He claimed that he had the support of some of my honourable friends. I have taken great care on this occasion to become acquainted with all the stages of the work of Standing Committee D on this Bill. At a quick glance and on searching my memory, I cannot remember any occasion during the Committee stage when the size of the QCA was debated. Perhaps the noble Lord the Minister can put me right on that, but I do not think it was at Committee stage. It may have been elsewhere. If the Minister would care to intervene, he may do so right now--
Lord Henley: I cannot assist the noble Lord, but I had got the impression--perhaps unjustly--that his honourable friends supported QCA as we propose to set it up.
Lord Morris of Castle Morris: I am grateful to the noble Lord although I cannot find evidence of that, but de minimis non curat lex--the law does not concern itself with trifles--and we need not take that any further now. And so, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 154:
The right reverend Prelate said: I spoke to this amendment a moment ago but, like the noble Lord, Lord Morris, I found the Minister's reply a little unsatisfying. A distinction ought to be made between what might be termed "minority interests"--important and significant as they are--and the substantial interests which are represented in both the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Morris, and, I would argue, in that to which I spoke earlier. Nevertheless, as we shall make no impression on the Minister at this hour, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
[Amendment No. 154 not moved.]
[Amendments Nos. 155 to 156A not moved.]
Clause 37, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 6 [The Qualifications and National Curriculum Authority]:
[Amendments Nos. 157 and 158 not moved.]
Lord Morris of Castle Morris had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 158A:
The noble Lord said: I am in a bit of quandary about this grouping. We have found Amendment No. 158A grouped with Amendment No. 168C. We are told that the groupings are,
After consideration, I do not wish to move Amendment No. 158A, but I shall wish to speak to Amendment No. 168C and, if it is in order, I shall do so in its proper place in the Marshalled List.
[Amendment No. 158A not moved.]
Clause 38 [General function of Authority to advance education and training]:
The Lord Bishop of Ripon moved Amendment No. 159:
The right reverend Prelate said: I have already spoken to this amendment. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Tope moved Amendment No. 159A:
The noble Lord said: Clause 38(2) states:
Those are clearly both important matters and are rightly included in the Bill, but the issue raised in this amendment is the need to ensure that the qualifications
The amendment seeks to ensure that those issues are all within the remit of the authority. Therefore, this amendment, together with Amendment No. 162C with which it is grouped, refers to "accessibility" and requires that the authority should also exercise its functions with a view to promoting accessibility as well as quality and coherence. I beg to move.
Lord Henley: I agree that it is vital for the new authority to build on the excellent work of both SCAA and NCVQ in promoting access and equal opportunities. We believe that SCAA has an explicit commitment to equal opportunities and that NCVQ has done much valuable work in this area, not least through its Access and Fair Assessment Advisory Forum. The establishment of a coherent, high quality framework of qualifications in itself encourages accessibility. The development of a new entry level for the framework in response to Sir Ron Dearing's recommendations will also do much in this area. I shall consider this amendment further and undertake to return at Report stage with appropriate amendments to reflect the concerns felt by noble Lords for those who face difficulties in achieving qualifications.
Page 32, line 23, at end insert--
("( ) persons who appear to him to have experience of, and to have shown capacity in, the provision of education in voluntary schools, or in grant-maintained schools having foundation governors;").
Page 69, line 35, at end insert--
("( ) the Chief Inspector of the Further Education Funding Council,").
"informal and not binding. It is therefore open to any Peer to speak to an amendment in its place in the Marshalled List".
Page 32, line 33, leave out ("National").
Page 32, line 38, after ("quality") insert (", accessibility").
"The Authority shall exercise their functions under this Part with a view to promoting quality and coherence in education and training".
10.15 p.m.
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