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The Lord Bishop of Ripon: I should like briefly to support the amendment. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Tope, made out a compelling case which has been made even stronger by the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock. There is low morale and a perception that status is not what it should be. There is also a very wide recognition that the establishment of a general teaching council would do a great deal to put matters right. The Churches have been glad to be involved in consultations about its structure.
Lord Henley: I accept, as my right honourable friend said in another place, that there has been some agreement throughout the profession that a professional body, which would allow the teaching profession to speak with one voice on key issues, could play a useful role. I thought that we were speaking to both amendments which reflect that but, as we are really debating general principles, I need not focus on one or the other. Nevertheless, they reflect to some extent the fact that there is not, as yet, total agreement on what form such a body should take even if, as I said, the debate in the other place showed that there is broad support for the principle across all parties.
As has been quoted on a number of occasions, my right honourable friend did not rule out the establishment of a statutory body, but stressed that whether or not such a statutory body is required would depend on the answers to a number of key questions. Those key questions have been repeated several times in the course of this debate. However, what I found rather interesting in the TES last Friday or Saturday was that even Mr. Doug McAvoy of the NUT, in an article entitled, "Beware Ministers Bearing Promises", repeated those questions, expressing doubts about the creation of such a body and saying that those questions have to be answered before one can progress down such a route.
I shall repeat those questions again. For example, what functions would the body have? That is very important. How would its members be elected or chosen? It is no good the noble Lord saying that I must accept the amendments or accept them in principle and then come back in two weeks with agreement across the entire profession as to exactly how these matters could be dealt with. What would its relation be with other bodies such as the teacher unions? We have all agreed that we can only do this if we have the general support of teacher unions. I certainly gain the impression from Mr. McAvoy's article that we do not have his support for what has been proposed. What would that body's relations be with the TTA?
Those are very important questions and ones which will have to be asked in due course. As I said, my right honourable friend did not rule out the establishment of such a statutory body, but I do not think that now is the time to address such matters. Therefore, I am afraid that I cannot provide the comfort that either noble Lord wanted between now and the Report stage. I leave the
noble Lord with the questions which he can contemplate in due course as he further considers the setting up of such a body.
Lord Tope: I said at the beginning that this was arguably one of the most important issues to be debated tonight and I am delighted that the noble Viscount the Leader of the House has chosen to join us thus indicating, somewhat to my surprise, its importance. Nevertheless, it is a very welcome surprise. I suspect that the noble Viscount was as surprised as I was to hear that the Minister is unwilling to go ahead with the proposal because there is not "total agreement" upon it. I was not aware that the Government were ever inhibited in going ahead with what they wanted to do because there was not total agreement among those who will be affected. However, if that is the principle that the Minister is now establishing then that at least is welcome even at this late hour.
Another first has also been established. Certainly in the time that I have taken part in education debates in this Chamber, I cannot ever remember the Minister quoting the NUT in his support. I tend to think that it is perhaps a measure of desperation that the Minister quotes Mr McAvoy's views and says that because Mr McAvoy feels as he does, then he must be right and the Minister must agree. I rather feel that tonight we have won the argument but perhaps for the time being lost the battle. I think we all acknowledge it is an important issue; it will not go away and it will be brought back. However, in view of the late hour, I shall not press the matter to a Division. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 64 [Power to make regulations: teachers not under contract of employment and persons having access to those under 19]:
[Amendment No. 201B not moved.]
[Amendment No. 201C not moved.]
Clause 65 [Recoupment by local education authority of costs of teachers' premature retirement]:
[Amendments Nos. 201D to 201F not moved.]
Lord Butterfield moved Amendment No. 202:
After Clause 65, insert the following new clause--
(" . The Secretary of State may, by order, make provision for the establishment of an independent Professional Institution of Teachers, including a contribution to the costs of setting up such an institution.").
The noble Lord said: I am anxious to bring this matter forward as an idea in parallel to the question of the establishment of a general teaching council. This institution would encourage teachers to progress intellectually. It is an idea which has been in the air for some time. I remember discussing it with the right honourable John Patten when he was Secretary of State for Education some five or six years ago when we were wrestling with the question of the establishment of a
There has been much discussion of the need for an organisation for teachers to associate themselves with to gain status with the public for their abilities in their subject, be it mathematics or geography. I should tell the Committee that the noble Viscount, Lord Caldecote, who was unfortunately out of the country and so not able to add his name to this amendment, and perhaps even lead the discussion, has been calling meetings of a small group--not a conspiratorial group--which has been frank and open in its views and which has consulted many bodies about the possibility of establishing the institution mentioned in the amendment.
Of course it should be recognised by all of us that there has been for many years--nigh on a century--the College of Preceptors. That organisation has provided teachers who wanted to show their ability in their subject with some kind of recognition or certification of their ability to meet certain standards. This was particularly useful to those teachers who were going to Commonwealth countries such as India or Australia, or wherever else it might be. They could add this certification to their general qualifications in the teaching profession. In a way, the College of Preceptors is a role model for those of us who have joined the discussions of the group of my noble friend Lord Caldecote about the future for the teaching profession in this matter. It is important that I convey to the Committee that all the eight to 10 people in the group are absolutely convinced that it is vital for teachers to have better recognition. All the remarks made about the need for a general teaching council to improve teachers' morale are equally applicable to the establishment of an institution which will give recognition to the teachers' ability in their subjects.
I cannot understand how we as a nation have allowed ourselves to get into such a state of criticism, harassing the teaching profession as we do. We must all appreciate that unless teachers have our confidence and our recognition for their abilities, it is highly unlikely that the children they are trying to teach will have the right attitude towards them as individuals and as leaders of morality, ethics and learning in our society. It is for that reason that I am keen that we establish an institution such as that referred to in the amendment.
Perhaps I may remind the Committee that it is inevitable that I should feel this way as a member of the medical profession. If I were a nurse, the same would be true. In both those professions there are organisations comparable with the general teaching council for the control of the profession. Sadly, we have to register. Sadly, we have to have ways of disciplining ourselves
Many people inside and outside the teaching profession recognise and support the idea of an institution such as that referred to in the amendment and supported by my noble friend Lord Caldecote and his group. I beg to move.
2 a.m.
Viscount Caldecote: I strongly support the amendment. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Butterfield for his remarks.
There is no doubt that we all agree that teaching is an important profession. It is arguable that it is the most important profession because it affects every aspect of our lives, whether at work or play. The highest achievable standards are vital to the well-being of the whole community. Like my noble friend Lord Butterfield, I find it amazing, and a matter of serious concern, that alone among important professions there is no independent professional institution of teachers, run by teachers, such as exists in other important professions like medicine, to which my noble friend referred, engineering and accountancy. In Australia, there is the example of the Australian College of Education. It is just that: a professional institution of teachers.
A similar professional institution for teachers would provide a focus for excellence in every sense for maintaining the highest standards in training, in the classroom and in professional conduct. As it developed, teachers would come to aspire to membership of it. I hope that eventually it would become a "Royal College of Teachers". But in any case such an institution would generate a greater feeling of unity and comradeship within the profession of teaching and it would contribute to higher morale, a point mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Tope. I entirely and very strongly agree with him on the importance of that. It would contribute to higher morale and a better public recognition of this most important profession.
When this institution is fully established it must be self-financing, as are similar institutions in other professions. But substantial expenditure would be required in the first few years of its formative stages before it became self-supporting. I hope that the Government will show support for such an independent professional institution. I hope the amendment will also enable the Secretary of State to contribute to the initial setting-up costs.
I therefore most warmly commend Amendment No. 202 to the Committee. I hope that my noble friend on the Front Bench will feel able to reply sympathetically to this proposal. I am given extra hope that he might be able to do so as a result of his
comments during our debate on Amendment No. 164B. He emphasised the importance of the role played by professional chartered bodies in maintaining standards.There is element of "chicken and egg" in this situation. Such an institution must have the full support of teachers. But Her Majesty's Government should give a lead on this important issue. That in itself will help to encourage the support of teachers.
I was not able to speak on Amendment No. 201A. However, as it was grouped with this amendment I hope that the Committee will feel that it is in order for me to say just a few words in connection with that amendment, which was withdrawn. I have no objection whatever to the setting up of a general teaching council for England and Wales similar to, but not the same as, the Scottish General Teaching Council, which has done valuable work. However, I rather doubt the wisdom of setting it up as a statutory body--though I shall not become involved in the detail of that tonight.
We must be clear that the general teaching council would not be a professional institution of teachers, with members elected by teachers on the basis of their academic qualifications and experience as teachers, as happens in other professions. As my noble friend Lord Butterfield emphasised, councils similar to the proposed GTC exist in medicine (the General Medical Council) and in engineering (the Engineering Council). But the valuable contribution which both those bodies and similar ones make would not be possible without the support of the professional institutions such as the Royal Colleges in medicine and the engineering institutions.
The establishment of a professional institution of teachers and a general teaching council should be urgently progressed side by side, with the highest priority given to the professional institution simply because of its essential supporting role for a GTC and the fact that it would be more difficult to form.
Perhaps the best outcome of this debate would be for Her Majesty's Government and my noble friend on the Front Bench to accept the principle of both these amendments. We have not the time to go into all the details tonight. I should be very happy to discuss them with my noble friend on the Front Bench. I hope that he will accept the principle of both these amendments and perhaps bring forward at Report stage an appropriate amendment to promote the formation of both these bodies, the GTC and the professional institution for teachers.
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