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Lord Milverton: My Lords, I should have thought that you cannot get rid of competition. Whatever form of education we have, whatever the system and whatever the different types of schools, education will not be any good unless there is competition. Indeed, that is what children and youngsters like. It is nonsense to be afraid of competition. What counts in any school is not so much the building--naturally, it would be all the better if all schools could have nice or beautiful buildings--but the quality of the teachers. Even with a lovely building, unless there are good quality teachers, the education will not be any good.
Lord Dormand of Easington: My Lords, if I understood the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, correctly, competition is pretty well the answer to the whole thing, although the noble Lord qualified that slightly by stressing the importance of teachers. I agree absolutely. However, does he agree that a whole range of factors have to be considered if there is to be fair competition or "perfect competition", as it used to be called in the economics books that I studied? That is what makes such nonsense of the league tables which were presented last week.
I address this next question again to the noble Lord: what about the buildings? I do not know whether he has seen the recent television programmes, including one today, which show schools dropping to bits. They were nowhere near to meeting the basic requirements for providing a decent and proper education.
What about the structure of the teaching staff? An ideal school would have three or four very experienced teachers and perhaps one or two newcomers with new ideas. However, that does not happen. At the moment, because of cost constraints, the Government are trying
to get rid of the more experienced teachers. The noble Lord shakes his head, but it is true. Hundreds of more experienced teachers have left. I am referring to the noble Lord, Lord Milverton, not the Minister, because he and I have talked about this previously. One could speak for a long time about the conditions that are necessary for the provision of a decent education. With great respect to the noble Lord, it is most naive to say that competition is what matters. Competition, yes, but only provided that all the circumstances are right. I see that the noble Lord wants to intervene and I hope that he will agree that unless all of the conditions are right, competition as he has defined it is absolute nonsense.
Lord Milverton: My Lords, when I referred to competition, I was not dismissing other things; I was saying that you cannot completely dismiss competition.
The Minister of State, Department for Education and Employment (Lord Henley): My Lords, perhaps I may take this opportunity at Report stage, following the first intervention from the noble Earl, Lord Baldwin, to welcome him back to our deliberations on the Bill. We were sorry that he had to miss so much of the Committee stage and we are pleased to see him back with us, looking as healthy and fit as he ought to do. We also appreciate the noble Earl's great struggle, if I may put it that way, to rise from his sick bed to vote for the party opposite in its ambush at 10.30 p.m. on the first Committee day on this Bill. The noble Earl is stronger than I thought.
I start by making one or two points on performance tables in response to the noble Lords, Lord Ponsonby and Lord Dormand. I was sorry to hear their views about performance tables whether in the primary or the secondary sectors. They will appreciate that I do not share their views. I believe that performance tables are one of the most valuable educational reforms of the past 18 years. They have two roles. The first is to provide information to parents, but they are not the only form of information that is available to parents. They are a relatively crude form of information. Valuable though it is, there is much other information available to parents through school prospectuses and other matters. Parents can take note of that and make their choice accordingly.
Secondly, they have an equally important role. They have a motivational effect on schools. We know that that effect has been dramatic in the secondary sector. It was for that reason that Mr. Rae, a former head of a distinguished public school--who I believe is not a supporter of my party but the party of the noble Lord, Lord Tope--said that performance tables had done more to raise standards than possibly any other reform that we had introduced because of the motivational effect on schools. That was why we were very keen to extend them to primary schools and why after the election we will be keen to extend them not just from Key Stage 2 tests but to the Key Stage 1 and 3 tests.
Turning to the amendment, it is designed to prevent entirely any primary school from introducing any selection into its admission arrangements. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Tope, that the effect of the amendment
would be to return schools to the present regime governing selective admissions which allows just that. Although these matters have not been tested in the courts at any stage, we have every assurance that they will still be effective and allow schools to select up to a certain percentage.As to the current regime, I believe that during our debates at Committee stage there was a degree of confusion. Noble Lords opposite appeared to believe that the Bill broke new ground in permitting primary schools to introduce any selection at all. That is not the case. At present, the rules regarding selective admissions to primary schools are exactly the same as those for secondary schools. An admission authority would have to publish statutory proposals if the proportion of pupils they wanted to admit by selection would amount to significant change in character. In my right honourable friend the Secretary of State's view, selecting up to 15 per cent. of a school's intake whether primary or secondary does not constitute a significant change of character, so the admission authority for any school, either primary or secondary, can at present introduce up to 15 per cent. selection without publishing statutory proposals. The Bill sets a new statutory baseline of 20 per cent. for selective admissions, with higher thresholds for specialist and grant-maintained secondary schools. We believe that, just as the present regime does not discriminate between primary and secondary schools, the new baseline should apply to both. The Bill maintains the current principle of parity between primary and secondary schools in relation to selection. It does not break new ground in this respect; nor does it seek to encourage primary selection, as some noble Lords opposite have argued in the past. Decisions on whether to introduce an element of selection will remain a matter for the admission authorities concerned, whether that be the school, the LEA or whoever. The Bill does not require primary school governing bodies to consider annually whether to introduce or extend selection. It merely makes a marginal increase to the current baseline above which statutory proposals are needed.
I should like to deal with the point raised by the right reverend Prelate as to whether there is a conflict between primary selection and any given trust deed that an individual school, particularly a church school, may have. I reassure the right reverend Prelate that nothing in the Bill would enable a school to introduce admission arrangements contrary to anything specified in relation to admission in a school's trust deed. That matter would have to be resolved in other ways relating to the trust deed itself.
We do not believe that many primary schools will wish to select pupils by general ability, although some may want to do so by aptitude for a particular subject. I believe that my honourable friend Mrs. Gillan gave the example of music when she spoke on this matter in another place. We believe that primary schools should have the same options as most secondary schools. That is what the Bill gives them. The amendment seeks to
undermine that. For that reason, I do not believe that noble Lords would be able to accept them. I urge the House to reject the amendment.
Lord Tope: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. He began by responding to points that had been made in the debate about performance tables. Perhaps I may do likewise. We on these Benches are wholly in favour of more information being made available to parents. But that needs to be good, reliable and accurate information in the proper context. The experience last week of the publication of the performance tables for Key Stage 2 illustrate the point extremely well. They were published quite properly by the DfEE not in league table form and were made available to the press. The press immediately interpreted them as league tables.
In moving this amendment, I made a passing reference to the fact that a school's place in the league table depended on which paper published it. I speak from experience in that I am a governor of a junior school. The school had a governors' meeting two days after publication of the tables. It appeared that the English tests had been mislaid through no fault of the school. They had apparently--and literally--been lost from the back of a lorry. The DfEE league tables were published with a symbol that simply said that the tests had been lost through no fault of the school, but newspapers interpreted that information quite differently. I was pleased to see that in the London Evening Standard my school was top of the league because of the way that newspaper had interpreted the missing results. In a number of other newspapers, one of which was the Independent, the school was bottom of the league because instead of averaging three it had averaged only two. That is a practical illustration of how the information is of no benefit to parents and certainly not to the school. My school was extremely upset about it, not least because it had just received an extremely good Ofsted report. That is the problem with league tables.
The Minister said quite rightly that league tables increased motivation. That is part of my concern, because in the competition to get up the league table the pressure on primary schools to select by ability and to improve intake and its position in the league table--because that is what parents will be looking at--will be all the greater. We do not believe that many primary schools, if any, select by ability now. We are heading down that road. The pressure on some schools to select by ability, particularly GM primary schools who can select up to 50 per cent., will be even greater. The effect that that will have on the remaining county primary schools does not bear contemplation.
We have repeatedly rehearsed the arguments on this point. We accept that these amendments do not mean that there will be no selection. They mean that we keep the status quo. Although I may regret it, I believe that that is better than to enshrine in legislation that primary schools may select up to 20 per cent. or more depending on their particular status. To enshrine it in legislation and to put it beyond doubt is to encourage it. I believe that this is a very significant change within the Bill.
I totally disagree with the Minister's view on this matter. For those reasons, I should like to test the opinion of the House.3.47 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 94; Not-Contents, 116.
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