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Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, it is a well-known truism in British parliamentary life for the Back Benches to look more than once when both Front Benches tell the same story. I am fully conscious of the honourable tradition behind that observation, which is one that I know many rebels deployed in their time in the other place. However, despite all the eloquence which we have heard against the Crime (Sentences) Bill during the course of the past 50 minutes, I have to say, notwithstanding my opening observation, that the noble Lords, Lord Richard and Lord McIntosh, were perfectly correct in their fundamental observations.
This Motion is a Motion for the sake of good order and good government.
Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, I think it is fair to say that the Government Front Bench, with its usual courtesy, gave a hearing to all noble Lords who have spoken thus far. I am sure, therefore, that noble Lords will wish to do the same for me.
As the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, observed, it is a Motion which tries to ensure that the dying days of a Parliament are conducted with a sense of good order and with decorum. I have not a great length of parliamentary experience, but I find it difficult to remember the end of a single Parliament when there was not a substantial amount of legislation still outstanding, much of it controversial, and when the usual channels in both Houses have not done their best to achieve a practical accommodation in the dying days of a Parliament to try to preserve good sense and dignity to the end.
Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, will allow me to proceed for a little longer, I shall give way to him with the greatest of pleasure. However, I should like to complete this one point.
I believe it is fair to say that the Motion which I moved earlier, without, as some noble Lords observed, further explanation, is directed at that objective only. We deliberately put on the Report stage of the crime Bill this afternoon knowing that it would be important for noble Lords to consider whether they would like to make further progress on that legislation. If the Motion is passed by your Lordships and we proceed to the Report stage of the Bill, there will be more opportunities for noble Lords from all sides of the House to make speeches of very much the same character as we have heard this afternoon. I make no complaint about that. However, what I do say, with the greatest of respect to the many very distinguished noble Lords and noble and learned Lords who have spoken, is that this is not the Motion upon which to speak, unless it is the desire of noble Lords--and I say this with great diffidence--in some elegant way to begin to filibuster the discussion at every opportunity.
I noticed that the noble Lords, Lord Harris, and Lord Barnett, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, and indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, regard it as the right of this House to kill a Bill should it feel so inclined. Should we ever be so unfortunate as to lose an election, I will remember those observations with some interest under different circumstances. I should also tell the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, that my noble friend the Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms did indeed talk to the Convener and discuss the matter with him. I am assured by my noble friend that that is so. I give way to the noble Lord.
Lord Taverne: My Lords, I apologise for asking the following question. Can the noble Viscount explain to the House what is different in the circumstances of this Bill from the circumstances of the Criminal Justice Bill 1987? The noble Viscount said that there are often such situations at the end of a Parliament, but can he cite any single example where there was such strong opposition from his Benches, from many Members of the Cross Benches, from the whole of the judiciary and, indeed, from so many parts of the House?
Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, as has been made clear by the Benches of the party immediately opposite, there has been an agreement about how the conduct of business should be arranged during the remaining days of this week. It is open to your Lordships' House to reject that agreement, as it is always open to Members of this House to vote against any Motion. I would strongly oppose such a thought but I would certainly support the right of noble Lords--as, indeed, noble Lords would expect me to--to express their opinion by way of voting or any other means. It is on the Motion that we will vote if the noble and learned Lord wishes to press the amendment to a vote. I make no quarrel about that. We have a suggestion which we have put before your Lordships and it is for your Lordships to decide.
I repeat, if your Lordships wish to object to any particular item of business which is before the House during the course of the next two or three days, it is open to your Lordships to do so on the basis of the business before us. However, what I find difficult is what I believe the noble Lords, Lord Richard and Lord McIntosh, also find difficult; namely, to interrupt what has been a well-established precedent that we try to bring our business to a reasonable conclusion in an elegant and agreed way in the last days of a Parliament.
I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Ewing, would not disagree with me, as a parliamentarian of many more years standing than I suspect I shall ever have, that the prerogative of the Prime Minister is clearly to call an election and to ask the Queen for prorogation and dissolution at his discretion. That decision is one which has been granted to Prime Ministers of all parties in power for some time now, as I am sure the noble Lord will agree. It is then, in the light of that decision, a matter of whether or not either House of Parliament wishes to allow the proposed arrangement of business to stand.
If this order of business is to have any chance of standing, and if not only the crime Bill but also all the rest of the Government's proposed legislation--and, indeed,
many Private Members' Bills--are to have any chance of becoming law in an agreed and orderly manner, we will have to suspend this Standing Order. We have an opportunity to discuss the crime Bill after that. I suggest to your Lordships that is the moment when objections of a passionately felt kind are appropriate, if your Lordships wish to make them.I have to say by way of conclusion that, of course, even if we had persisted until 8th April--the last possible date for Parliament to sit if we were to have an election on 1st May--it is highly unlikely that we would have been able to complete consideration of this Bill anyway. If we were to have done so, we would have had to suspend Standing Orders in any case. I say with the greatest of respect to the House that I think perhaps we are mixing apples and oranges here. I am sure there will be much passionate debate later this afternoon should my Motion find favour with the House.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, I hope I may ask the noble Viscount a question. Is he saying that the Prime Minister of the day always has carte blanche to fill up the timetable with masses of legislation in the final Session of a Parliament which he knows cannot be completed in time and then to ramrod it through at the last moment without debate?
Viscount Cranborne: My Lords, it is for promoters of Bills to propose and for Parliament to decide.
The Lord Chancellor: My Lords, the original Motion was as set out on the Order Paper, since when an amendment has been moved thereto at the end to insert,
- "except in its application to the Crime (Sentences) Bill".
The Question before this House, therefore, is, That the amendment to the original Motion be agreed to.
4.11 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 137; Not-Contents, 185.
Ackner, L. [Teller.]
Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ailesbury, M.
Allen of Abbeydale, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Annan, L.
Avebury, L.
Baldwin of Bewdley, E.
Barnett, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bingham of Cornhill, L.
Blease, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Blyth, L.
Borrie, L.
Boyd-Carpenter, L.
Bramall, L.
Bridge of Harwich, L.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Browne-Wilkinson, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Calverley, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle, E.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnarvon, E.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Charteris of Amisfield, L.
Chorley, L.
Clancarty, E.
Craigavon, V.
Crook, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy (de Knayth), B.
Devonport, V.
Dickinson, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dowding, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Emerton, B.
Exmouth, V.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V. [Teller.]
Flowers, L.
Gillmore of Thamesfield, L.
Gladwyn, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grey, E.
Hacking, L.
Hampton, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harding of Petherton, L.
Harris of Greenwich, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hayter, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hooson, L.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton, L.
Inchyra, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.
Kennet, L.
Kilbracken, L.
Kinloss, Ly.
Kintore, E.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood, L.
Lane, L.
Leathers, V.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lockwood, B.
Longford, E.
Lowry, L.
McNair, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Meston, L.
Monson, L.
Mottistone, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Mustill, L.
Napier of Magdala, L.
Newall, L.
Nicol, B.
Northbourne, L.
Norton, L.
Ogmore, L.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Phillips of Ellesmere, L.
Pym, L.
Redesdale, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Robson of Kiddington, B.
Rochester, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Russell, E.
Sainsbury, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sefton of Garston, L.
Serota, B.
Shannon, E.
Shaughnessy, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Stallard, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strafford, E.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Gosforth, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thurlow, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Wallace of Coslany, L.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Aberdare, L.
Addison, V.
Ailsa, M.
Alexander of Tunis, E.
Anelay of St. Johns, B.
Archer of Weston-Super-Mare, L.
Ashbourne, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Balfour, E.
Barber of Tewkesbury, L.
Belhaven and Stenton, L.
Belstead, L.
Berners, B.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruntisfield, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Cadman, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chesham, L. [Teller.]
Clanwilliam, E.
Clark of Kempston, L.
Cledwyn of Penrhos, L.
Clinton, L.
Cochrane of Cults, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigmyle, L.
Cranborne, V. [Lord Privy Seal.]
Cranbrook, E.
Cuckney, L.
Cullen of Ashbourne, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Davidson, V.
Dean of Beswick, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denbigh, E.
Denham, L.
Denton of Wakefield, B.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donegall, M.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Downshire, M.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Eatwell, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Gainford, L.
Gainsborough, E.
Geddes, L.
Gibson-Watt, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Gisborough, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goschen, V.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray, L.
Greenway, L.
Haig, E.
Halsbury, E.
Haslam, L.
Hayman, B.
Hemphill, L.
Henley, L.
Holderness, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
HolmPatrick, L.
Howe, E.
Ilchester, E.
Inglewood, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Johnston of Rockport, L.
Keyes, L.
Kimball, L.
Kitchener, E.
Knutsford, V.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lauderdale, E.
Lindsay, E.
Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Long, V.
Lucas, L.
Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
Mackay of Ardbrecknish, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L. [Lord Chancellor.]
Mackay of Drumadoon, L.
Macleod of Borve, B.
Malmesbury, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merrivale, L.
Middleton, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Morris of Castle Morris, L.
Morris of Kenwood, L.
Mountevans, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Noel-Buxton, L.
Norrie, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Orr-Ewing, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Paul, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Porter of Luddenham, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quinton, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rankeillour, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Renton, L.
Renwick, L.
Richard, L.
Ridley, V.
Romney, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Rowallan, L.
St. Davids, V.
Saint Oswald, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Somerset, D.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stewartby, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strathcarron, L.
Strathclyde, L. [Teller.]
Swinton, E.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Terrington, L.
Teviot, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Ullswater, V.
Vivian, L.
Westbury, L.
Wharton, B.
Whitelaw, V.
Whitty, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Winston, L.
Wolfson, L.
Wynford, L.
Young, B.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
4.23 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Motion shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 206; Not-Contents, 76.
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