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Lord Hylton: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her explanation, which I am sure a number of us will study with great care. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Blatch moved Amendments Nos. 139 to 146:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Baroness Blatch moved Amendment No. 147:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this is another minor, technical amendment to ensure internal consistency in existing legislation. With the deletion of the whole of Part III of the Criminal Justice Act 1961, it is appropriate to delete subsequent references to that part of the Act which appear in Part IV of the 1961 Act. Accordingly, that is what the amendment does. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 148:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is yet another minor and technical amendment. All it seeks to do is retain the parole and remission provisions of the 1991 Act. If the Minister will promise not to tell the Home Secretary that it has been passed, then I shall not do so. Unfortunately I see that the noble Baroness will not agree. In the circumstances, therefore, I shall not move the amendment.
[Amendment No. 148 not moved.]
Then, Standing Order 44 having been suspended, (pursuant to Resolution of today's date):
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
I shall not detain the House other than to say that I have been enormously sustained despite the liveliness of the discussions in what was, sometimes, rather a tense atmosphere. I am grateful to all noble Lords on all sides of the House, some of whom felt very strongly about the Bill in one way or another, for their participation. I am so very grateful for the support that I have received from my own Benches, especially from my noble and learned friend the Lord Advocate and my
Moved, That the Bill be now read a third time.--(Baroness Blatch.)
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I would rather not have the Bill at all; indeed, I would certainly rather not have it under these circumstances. I do not think that there is any way of concealing my opposition to very large parts of the Bill. Of course, there are sections in Part III of the Bill which are extremely valuable in that they provide a greater range of non-custodial sentences and will have a benefit in reducing the prison population. However, if we go back to the Financial Memorandum to the Bill and we realise that the Bill as originally drafted would have meant an increase in the prison population by the time that the process was complete--admittedly in 12 years--of 11,000 prisoners and an increased revenue expenditure, let alone capital expenditure, of between £375 million and £425 million a year, it will be understood why I quoted the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate earlier this afternoon. No government could implement the Bill unless there were an assurance of the resources to house and finance the increased prison population. Indeed, there is no need for me to say it if the Government have already acknowledged that fact.
I shall not make any triumphalist predictions about what will happen on 1st May, or what the situation will be thereafter. I do not think that that is appropriate in this House. However, over the four-and-a-half years in which I have been involved in Home Office matters and, in the more recent part of those years, when I have faced the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, over the Dispatch Box, I have had cause to express very strong disagreement with her about issues and occasionally about procedures; but I have never had any reason to doubt her courtesy and the scrupulous honesty with which she has approached the duty that she has to perform. Whatever may be the future for the noble Baroness after the election, I wish her well. I should add that the Minister has been ably supported in the proceedings on the Bill by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate and, indeed, by the noble Earl, Lord Courtown, to whom I also pay tribute.
Of course, during the course of the debates on the Bill, the Minister has been faced with strong and effective opposition from all parts of the House. I am sorry that none of the judges are here with us at this late hour but their contribution to our debates has been remarkable as, indeed, have been the contributions of the noble Earl, Lord Carlisle, and the noble Lord, Lord Hacking. The Liberal Democrat party has maintained its principle of civil libertarianism, if I may say so, in a relentless way--and I do not mean that in anything other than an admiring sense. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, and all of his colleagues for their contributions to the Bill.
It is an unhappy situation that we have to let this Bill through in this way. The issues which the Bill raises will involve considerable heart searching after the election. I still do not know whether that will be done in statutory form, but something will have to be done about the provisions of this Bill.
Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank: My Lords, I shall not say much further at this late hour, which is nevertheless a much earlier hour than we anticipated at one stage. I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I quote from the beginning of my speech at Second Reading when I said I thought this was,
I have to say that nothing between Second Reading and Third Reading makes me resile from that view.
It is a better Bill for the debates we have had and the amendments we have made. It would have been better still had we been able to make more amendments and indeed been able to scrutinise the Bill with the attention it deserved. What its future is is not for me to say, and all of us can speculate, but I hope it does not represent a major change in penal policy and that we shall revert in due course to what the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, called a more libertarian view--because I think it is a more realistic one--of how we should deal with these matters.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, in that I, too, have admired, as always, the formidable persistence of the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch. She is a tough customer in the best possible way and a loyal and unwavering servant of her colleague the Home Secretary. He is fortunate that she has represented him here.
I admired, on this Bill as on others, the persistence of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh--at least until today. He was quite right to draw attention to the part played in the progress of the Bill by some who are not present. He mentioned the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle, and the noble Lord, Lord Hacking. I am sure he was right to mention the remarkable contributions of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham, and the persistence--to use the word again--of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner. They and others have contributed to interesting debates which we now have to bring to a conclusion.
I have been immensely grateful for the assistance given by my noble friends Lord Thomas of Gresford, Lord Mar and Kellie and Lord Russell, who played a notable part in this Bill. We shall see what the future holds, but at least we have debated some important issues and I hope that in the Official Report our deliberations will be read in memory of what we have done.
Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I shall remember for all time this brief debate on Third Reading in that I believe I have not only been promoted to the hereditary peerage by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh,
As someone who has been involved in this Bill and has--I accept--been a thorn in the side of my party, I hope those on my Front Bench will accept that my views on this Bill have been sincere and genuinely held. I hope my noble friend the Minister will not have thought at any time that my remarks were meant personally against her. I have tremendous admiration for the way she has had to carry not only this Bill but several other controversial Home Office Bills through the final few months of this Parliament.
Like the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, and particularly the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, I cannot pretend I am persuaded that this Bill is right. However, I am grateful for the courtesy that my noble friend has shown to us throughout in the debates we have had.
Page 68, line 42, leave out ("40(1), (2), (3)(b) and (4)").
Page 68, line 46, leave out ("40(1), (2), (3)(b) and (4)").
Page 69, line 8, after ("30(5),") insert ("31,").
Page 69, line 12, leave out ("section") and insert ("sections 30(5) and").
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Page 70, line 34, column 3, at end insert--
("In section 36(1), the words "or under Part III".In section 38, in subsection (3), the words "of Part III and" and, in subsection (6), the words "and of any enactment referred to in Part III of this Act".In section 39, in subsection (1), the definitions of "appropriate institution" and "responsible Minister", and subsection (1A).In section 42, in subsection (1), the words "Part III except section thirty-three" and, in subsection (2), the words "Part III".")
Page 71, column 3, leave out line 19.
11.15 p.m.
"a bad Bill with few redeeming features, foolishly conceived, wrong in principle and deceptive in its relevance to the real fight against crime".--[Official Report, 27/1/97; col. 980.]
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