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Lord Hacking: My Lords, I begin my brief words by joining my noble friend Lord Carlisle in thanking the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, for elevating me as an hereditary Peer to an earldom, and I graciously accept the elevation.

I am also grateful for the kind remarks of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh. I was also a great supporter and admirer of him until today and, no doubt, my admiration and support will return on other days. The fact is that the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, has not been able to show us his great parliamentary skills today in arguing so many of the amendments that we would have wished him to argue with us.

I wish particularly to direct my comments to the Minister. It has been my painful and indeed awkward task during the course of this Bill frequently to disagree with my noble friend and with many provisions in the Bill. Spurred by great hilarity at an earlier stage in our proceedings, I used rather stronger language about the Bill than I would do now. It is a Bill with which I am not happy, and I wish that it had been considered much further. I hope my noble friend will accept that the concerns I have expressed, whether I have used temperate or intemperate language, have been real and genuine concerns. Nobody who has sat throughout this debate, as have I and other noble Lords, could have failed to notice the meticulous care that my noble friend paid to every single amendment and, indeed, how extremely well she was briefed. She even noticed that I had decoupled some amendments last night when speaking to her office and then coupled them together again in the debate today. That transgression did not pass the eyes of my noble friend, and is one example of the meticulous care and courtesy that she has shown throughout the proceedings.

I have only one other observation to make, and I am invited to do so by my noble friend Lord Cranborne, the Lord Privy Seal, who said that this was the stage at which to comment upon the application of the Motion that your Lordships carried earlier today to enable us to truncate our proceedings on this Bill, so that now we are speaking on Third Reading although, a few minutes earlier, we were still dealing with the Report stage.

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I hope my noble friend the Leader of the House and indeed the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition will read these observations. I have been in your Lordships' House as an hereditary Peer for some time, and I can say quite clearly that, while the Motion itself is not unprecedented, what has been quite unprecedented is the volume and complexity of Bills that have been swept in under this Motion, and many of those Bills are highly controversial.

I have a very clear memory of the end of the Conservative Government in 1974. At that time, several heavy Public Bills were being considered by either this House or another place. I remember particularly the road traffic Bill. There was no attempt whatever in taking any heavy Public Bills through on any truncated system, and any arrangements which were then made through the usual channels did not involve that. Indeed, I well remember that with the road traffic Bill the Conservative Government of the day allowed it to drop, although it was a big Bill. Then a Labour Government succeeded and they actually picked up that Bill to such a point that I can almost hear the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, who was then the Minister, through the mouth of the Labour Minister, who was then picking up the brief of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville.

I also have a very clear recollection of 1979, when again a government ended. I have a very clear recollection that no heavy Bills were taken through on the nod and no controversial Bills were taken through. The only agreement that was made between our House and the other place through the usual channels was to take uncontroversial Bills. I remember that particularly well because the Arbitration Bill was before your Lordships' House at that time and, as part of the agreement through the usual channels, the House of Commons did not consider the Arbitration Bill at all. I believe that the Arbitration Bill was a great deal better for its having been considered only by your Lordships.

I am fearful about a precedent being created by what has occurred today. I hope that noble Lords and leaders of both sides of the House will read my observations. My memory is accurate about the events in 1974 and 1979. I hope that this will never be repeated. It is a thoroughly bad precedent.

I emphasise that noble Lords on the Front Benches had this problem dumped on them from another place. I hope that these matters will not be dumped on us again and that this will be a one-off and not a precedent.

The Earl of Mar and Kellie: My Lords, it is somewhat ironic that this is the first time I have spoken tonight. But for certain developments during the day, I think that we would have been discussing amendments. However, I may make up for that during discussion on the Crime and Punishment (Scotland) Bill.

I congratulate the noble Baroness and the Front Bench team. I wondered quite what was in the lemonade on occasions. I have two points. First, I believe that the early release scheme will be difficult to sell to prisoners. They will take a lot of persuasion that the provision may

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not be as bad as it looks. Secondly, on a more hopeful note, the search for better and more effective community sentences must go on.

Earl Russell: My Lords, in this business, as in tennis, one of the things that really matters is one's relationship with the player the other side of the net. Perhaps I may say to the noble Baroness that I have been delighted to have her the other side of the net. Every time we are opposite each other, my respect for her integrity, her persistence, her determination and her attention to the business rises. The noble Baroness said tonight that those of us who were opposed to the Bill had shown a dogged determination. Perhaps I may pay her the compliment of saying that I believe we are not alone in that. I believe that no one will expect me to say any good word about the Bill. It is a much worse Bill than I thought when we first embarked upon it at Second Reading. I do not believe that it will protect the public but rather the opposite. If it ever comes into effect, I believe that its cost will be exorbitant--far greater than any of the estimates which have been put before us. As do others, I believe that it is highly unlikely that the Bill will ever come into effect. I wonder, therefore, exactly what purpose has been served in rushing it through this House.

The noble Lord, Lord Hacking, was worried about his intemperate use of language. Worse language was used in this House in 1610 by none other than the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, who expressed a wish that the Bill before the House be committed to the pit of hell. I shall not follow him down that path.

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, were not content with the deal which we reached earlier this evening. My noble friends believed, and I believe, that it was the best available in the circumstances and, therefore, that there was a strong case for reaching it. I should like to repeat my thanks to all those--they are more numerous than I can now mention--who were involved in reaching it. It is at least something solid. I am sorry that there is disagreement between us, but in any matter of judgment that is, I think, inevitable. However, I will say to the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, and through him his noble friends, and honourable friends, and friends in other places, that the mere fact that this deal has been improved shows that they did not try hard enough. As a pure hypothesis, let us suppose that in five years' time they are sitting opposite where I now stand. I wonder whether they will find the Opposition quite so forbearing in the last week of the next Parliament. Personally, I should be a little surprised. I do not think they tried.

I will not follow the noble Lord, Lord Hacking, down the path of discussing in detail the deal which was reached, but I believe that in any future deals we must ensure that this House, including the Cross-Benches, has a much fuller input into any agreement reached than it appears to have had on this occasion. I wondered earlier this afternoon whether it had done as much to diminish the standing of this House as anything proposed by the Opposition. I am thankful that at least some of that has been put right.

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On these Benches I have been extremely glad to have enjoyed the co-operation of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford. This is his first very big Bill; it will not be the last. Welcome.

I should like to congratulate my noble friend Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, who has had as distinguished a session as any I can remember enjoyed by anyone on these Benches, not just on this Bill but all the way through the session.

My noble friend the Earl of Mar and Kellie has always been there, has always known about the detail of the obscurest point we have been discussing and has been a tower of strength throughout.

I should like to thank all others who have taken part--most notably the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham of Cornhill--for the intellectual distinction which, from every part of the House and from every angle, they have brought to the debates. I for one remain proud to have taken part in them.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, perhaps I may take the opportunity of expressing my complete admiration for the Minister for the hard work which she has put into this Bill and her attention to detail. I have appreciated the way in which she has dealt with some perhaps impetuous interruptions from me. I congratulate her on the way she has steered the Bill through the House.

I have also been much impressed by the contributions of the noble Lords, Lord Carlisle and Lord Hacking, from the Government Benches. They have put forward their point of view with great courage in the position in which they found themselves and have supported amendments which have been pressed upon the Government from all sides of the House.

It has been a particular pleasure for me to work with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, and to listen to the contribution of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham, who, I thought, gave the best speeches I have heard in this House since I so recently arrived.

I have also been much impressed by the hard work put in by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey. I regret that he was not with us all the way to the bitter end, but certainly his contribution has been immense.

Perhaps I may say to those with whom I have worked on these Benches that I am very grateful to have been a member of the team so ably led by my noble friend Lord Rodgers, supported by the noble Earls, Lord Mar and Kellie and Lord Russell. I have been much instructed in the 17th century by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and I am sure that that will stand me in good stead.

Finally, perhaps I may offer my personal thanks to the noble Earl, Lord Courtown, for the assistance that he has given to me from time to time, putting me right when I have got things wrong.

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