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Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank: My Lords, I welcome the half conversion of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, to the merits of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Weatherill. I understand that when the amendment was proposed the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, was properly concerned about the consequences in terms of costs. I fully understand that and make no criticism. He reminds me that he supported the amendment at that time. I am glad that he did so, despite the reservations that I knew he had about the burden which might fall on the Treasury. The amendment made by your Lordships' House was most worthwhile and, like the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, I am sorry that it has been rejected.
Will the Minister remind your Lordships, because I have forgotten, of the intention with regard to the implementation of the separate parts of Part V? That was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh. I am not clear whether the Government have committed themselves to early implementation of the provisions in relation to criminal conviction certificates or whether that is to be phased in. That was referred to at the early stages of our debate, but I now cannot recall precisely what was said.
I agree that it is difficult to calculate what will be the cost. I make no criticism of the noble Baroness that she has found it possible on this and other occasions to speak more briefly to your Lordships than have her colleagues in another place. But in the rather fuller remarks made by her colleague, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Mr. Kirkhope, although he sought to describe equity, practicality and cost as the three reasons that the Government were unable to accept the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Weatherill, in the final resort it amounted to the question of cost; who was to pay; and what the cost would be.
I hope that these provisions do not result in fewer people coming forward to volunteer, the organisations being able to have fewer volunteers, or the facilities provided in the Bill not being used. I should be very unhappy about any of those outcomes. But I believe a future government will have to return to the provisions of the Bill and bring forward amendments. It may well be that experience will show what amendments are acceptable not only to your Lordships' House but also to another place on a future occasion.
Therefore, while I regret the amendments and believe that the gesture made by the Government may well turn out to be cosmetic, there is widespread understanding on all sides of the House of the problem. We want the voluntary organisations to make the best use possible of the Bill but we do not want them to be penalised by the costs which may very well fall on that.
Lord Elton: I have the deepest sympathy for the noble Lord, Lord Weatherill, and all those who
supported his amendments. Being active in the voluntary sector, I am fully alive to the penalty which the voluntary sector may have to face in years to come.However, we must strike a balance in relation to what is desirable. If it is agreed that this is a form of protection for young people which is needed, the question is how it is to be paid for. It is either put onto central taxation or onto the voluntary sector or the volunteer. The Government's response is much better than they have been given credit for. I am not at all sure that the amendments to which the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, referred will be necessary to bring about the state of affairs which he seeks.
The Secretary of State is empowered to make regulations when he wishes to exempt certain people from payment. That payment will then fall on the general taxpayer. No amendment is needed to bring that about but merely the stroke of a pen of an incoming Secretary of State. Therefore, the matter remains in the political arena and the next government will be able to decide who shall and who shall not have to pay. In doing so by means of regulation, I should point out, because it is not at the end of the Bill where one would expect to find it but in Clause 114, that the regulations will be by statutory instrument through the negative procedure and therefore available for debate by Parliament. That is a better solution than noble Lords have given credit for.
Earl Russell: My Lords, I share the regret that the amendment has not been accepted. The Government have lavished a great deal of praise on your Lordships' House in recent times and, while we are all grateful for praise, that praise does not appear to have been matched by any general readiness to accept your Lordships' amendments. I have occasionally entertained the perhaps uncharitable suspicion that their liking for your Lordships' House is in proportion to the ease with which they are able to reverse its amendments.
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, it is end of term and I am not going to bite too much on the words of the noble Earl. However, a great deal of time and serious consideration have been given to the amendments to the Bill by my right honourable friend--and I refer both to the surveillance amendments and the amendments on this matter. I have come to appreciate that when in government, one must consider some of the points made so eloquently by my noble friend Lord Elton. It is a question of balance and determining who pays. We have that indeterminate number of people out there in the voluntary sector--between 8 million and 20 million people. Therefore, it seems to us responsible to think about how the concern could be addressed while at the same time remembering that some difficult decisions would need to be faced as to who is to pay.
I know that the noble Lord, Lord Weatherill, is disappointed. I accept and understand that. But I think he would be much more disappointed had the debates been cut off at this point. As my noble friend said, the matter is still alive and future parliaments will be able to consider the issue.
Perhaps I may say to my noble friend Lord Swinfen that it is not possible for me to be definitive about priorities at this stage. There is no question that children
are a priority, but the category of people to be exempt will depend very much on the ability of that category to meet the payments and on the particular case that it is able to make. That will all be part of extremely extensive consultation. Therefore, without anticipating the outcome of that debate which would follow by prompting the use of the powers available to a future Secretary of State, I hope that noble Lords will accept that the Government's response was not wholly negative.The noble Lord, Lord Rodgers, asked when this is to be implemented. The intention would be to phase the criminal conviction certificate after the introduction of the criminal record and enhanced criminal certificate.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
70
Clause 103, page 43, leave out lines 2 to 6
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 70, which I spoke to when I moved Amendment No. 69.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 70.--(Baroness Blatch.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
71
Clause 103, page 43, line 12, after ("means(", insert ("such")
Baroness Blatch: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 71. In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 72, 76 to 79, 82 to 96, 100, 101, 121, 123, 126 and 127. We have already considered a number of amendments relating to free checks for volunteers. These amendments deal with onward disclosure of criminal record information by regulatory bodies.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 71.--(Baroness Blatch.)
Lord Elton: My Lords, I rise because I have to leave before proceedings conclude. I wish to express a note of admiration of my noble friend for the astonishing way in which she has conducted not only this Bill but several other Bills simultaneously through this House in the face of reasoned and steady opposition. She has done so with great efficiency and aplomb. As one who has been at the Dispatch Box but never under such withering fire, I should like to give her my sympathy and congratulations.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
72
Clause 103, page 43, line 13, at end insert ("as may be prescribed")
Clause 104, page 43, line 22, after ("application(", insert ("under this section")
Page 43, line 24, leave out ("the prescribed fee") and insert ("any fee that is payable in relation to the application under regulations made by the Secretary of State")
Page 43, leave out lines 25 to 28
Page 43, line 31, leave out ("asked by that person")
Page 43, line 39, after ("means(", insert ("such")
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74
75
76
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(".--(1) The Secretary of State shall issue a criminal record certificate to any individual who--
(a) makes an application under this section in the prescribed form, and
(b) pays any fee that is payable in relation to the application under regulations made by the Secretary of State.
(2) An application under this section must be accompanied by a statement by a Minister of the Crown that the certificate is required for the purposes of an exempted question asked in the course of considering the applicant's suitability for an appointment by or under the Crown.
(3) Section 104(3) to (5) shall apply in relation to this section with any necessary modifications.")
80
Clause 105, page 44, line 9, leave out ("the prescribed fee") and insert ("any fee that is payable in relation to the application under regulations made by the Secretary of State")
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